Leiter Reports: A Philosophy Blog

News and views about philosophy, the academic profession, academic freedom, intellectual culture, and other topics. The world’s most popular philosophy blog, since 2003.

  1. Wynship W. Hillier, M.S.'s avatar

    I first met Professor Hoy when I returned to UC Santa Cruz in Fall of ’92 to finish my undergraduate…

  2. Justin Fisher's avatar

    To be worth using, a detector needs not only (A) not get very many false positives, but also (B) get…

  3. Mark's avatar

    Everything you say is true, but what is the alternative? I don’t think people are advocating a return to in-class…

  4. Deirdre Anne's avatar
  5. Keith Douglas's avatar

    Cyber security professional here -reliably determining when a computational artifact (file, etc.) was created is *hard*. This is sorta why…

  6. sahpa's avatar

    Agreed with the other commentator. It is extremely unlikely that Pangram’s success is due to its cheating by reading metadata.

  7. Deirdre Anne's avatar

Returning for a PhD in Philosophy in your 40s?

Brian Leiter

A reader in his early 40s, who has retired, for health reasons, from another professional career (one in which some applied ethicists work), has been teaching some applied philosophy courses as an adjunct and "found that I absolutely love teaching amd mentoring students."  He asks: 

My undergraduate degree was in Philosophy which I obtained from a large state school notably not listed in the PGR where I was an average student in the subject.  But, it has been awhile since I studied Philosophy, though I recently spent two years in graduate school for International Relations at a highly respected institution and did very well GPA-wise despite having to work…while attending school.  So I applied to a PGR listed terminal MA program, and was accepted, looking to use the experience to build my academic credentials in philosophy in order to (hopefully) be accepted into a top PhD program.  I love the subject and would love the opportunity to teach/conduct research it (I especially see myself at a SLAC as I would like the interaction with the students a SLAC offers).  I also have no illusions regarding the nature of graduate school having spent two years in it already.  Additionally, I have researched the job market and completely understand the risks I am taking.  

Thus, my question is this:  I will be in my early 50's when I hit the job market.  Am I kidding myself that I could ever get a job, at such an old age, in the tight and competitive market that is academic Philosophy even if I am lucky enough to be accepted into a top program?  And, would a top program even consider me?  Let's face it, there is age discrimination out there no matter how much we might want it to not be.  Financially, my MA is paid for….  I also have my pension coming in every month (which is substantially more than a PhD student stipend) as well as full medical and dental coverage for my family, so I do not see having to take out loans to supplement my income for living expenses, etc to attain my goal of a PhD (at least initially).  Finally, being disabled, academia seems like am excellent place for me to build a second career as my mind is not injured/broken, only my body.  Any thoughts/advice regarding the reality of my situation from your readers would be greatly appreciated, especially since I will be pursuing the MA no matter what they say.

Thoughts/advice from readers, including those in similar situations, faculty who have worked with older or non-traditional students, etc.?

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

24 responses to “Returning for a PhD in Philosophy in your 40s?”

  1. Christian Michel

    Peter Goldie is an example of someone with a successful second career in academic philosophy in the UK (after a career in business). As far as I know he was 44 when he started studying philosophy.

    Reply
  2. Faculty Member at Top-40 PGR school

    I am going to submit this anonymously, as I do not want to be viewed as commenting on any successful or unsuccessful applicants to our program.

    We have gotten several applications over the past ten years or so to our program that are older students whose situations are somewhat similar to the poster's. Our view was that it would rather obviously be flatly wrong to factor in the inevitable age discrimination that a student could face on the market upon completion of a PhD, any more than we should factor in the inevitable race or sex or sexual orientation discrimination that a student could face. Our job on admissions was to look for talented candidates who have something to offer to our department and to the profession. Most such candidates were not offered admission (very few candidates are), but I know that we have offered admission and fellowship support to a couple of applicants with this profile.

    Reply
  3. An Undergraduate

    I'm currently an undergraduate at a school ranked (rather, tied for) 14th on the PGR. Our upper-level philosophy courses mix undergraduate and graduate students. One of the graduate students in a class that I took was definitely "older" (likely 40+). I also know that a graduate student at the University of Chicago is much older than most graduate students (he received his BA in 1970).

    Reply
  4. bzfgt

    I think anyone looking to get a PhD in Philosophy right now needs to ask themselves whether they want to pursue it for its own sake, or at least whether they'd still want it if they knew that a job wasn't waiting for them at the end of the line, before doing it, since the job market is so uncertain.

    Reply
  5. Older Grad Student

    Wanting to teach and mentor students doesn't strike me as a good reason to pursue a PhD. Beyond the adjunct level, university teaching in most places requires a pretty serious commitment to doing and publishing research. I've seen a lot of people, across various disciplines, who underestimated this. They liked the idea of the academic lifestyle, they liked being in the classroom, but they weren't really prepared for the research and publishing demands. While getting a job is one consideration, keeping it should be a consideration as well. You'll be approaching 60 by the time you come up for tenure. Just something to keep in mind.

    Sandy Goldberg (NU) has an good piece of advice for those considering grad school:
    "One really has to love philosophy, if you’re going to commit even the years in graduate school to it. You have to love it. I think you actually have to love it intrinsically. You have to love what is really beautiful about thinking of these ideas and the clash of opinions. If you don’t love it in that way, so much so that you can’t imagine doing anything else, then my advice would be, don’t do it to begin with.” http://www.philosophynews.com/post/2013/11/28/A-Conversation-with-Dr-Sandy-Goldberg-on-Getting-a-Job-in-Philosophy.aspx

    Reply
  6. Original Poster

    As the OP, thanks to those who responded. Great info….many things I had not considered. I look forward to additional comments from others as well.

    To "Older Grad Student": Thanks for the link….as well as the note about tenure and approaching 60. That was not something I had not thought of. Also, absolutely agree that enjoying the teaching/mentoring experience with students is not reason enough to pursue a PhD. As I say in my original post above: "I love [philosophy] and would love the opportunity to teach/conduct research it." I have truly missed the subject since I left it many years ago to pursue another line of work I found to be challenging and rewarding, but now impossible due to my physical disability. Also, (I assume) research and publishing are not only critical in establishing/maintaining one's career in academia, but are a critical part to pushing the discipline forward as well. It is the intellectual challenge of "pushing the discipline forward" that is just as enticing, only in a different way, as teaching/mentoring. Both are reasons I am pursuing the privilege of a PhD education.

    Reply
  7. Thi Lam

    If you love teaching and mentoring students, then working at a community college will be a better fit for you than a four-year university. Teaching is the emphasis at the former institution, while publishing is the emphasis at the latter. The good news is that you only need a master's in order to teach at a two-year college, although having a PhD wouldn't hurt. Having the doctorate will give you more employment opportunities, however, so I would never discourage you from applying to a PhD program. I'm glad that you asked this question, as I will turn forty this year and am thinking of applying to a PhD program myself. I have a JD as well, so will consult the PGR for programs in the philosophy of law. Good luck in your master's program for now.

    Reply
  8. Prof at a midwestern SLAC

    Maybe another wrinkle to consider here: across much of higher ed, open tenure lines (due to retirement or departure) are no longer rubber-stamped for replacements. I know that, at my institution, the economic downturn of the last half-decade, combined with other shifting sands in higher education, has led to a rethinking of hiring. Now departures are sources of stress, as the loss of a tenure line is a real possibility. I think this stress may be compounded at other institutions by the expansion of contingent faculty replacing tenure lines. The upshot of all this is that advanced age may work against you at some institutions who are hiring: ideally, they want someone who is likely to be there for a very long time, and your age may lead them to worry that they'll be back in the same position of having to justify a hire much sooner than they'd like.

    Reply
  9. Charles Pigden

    Times change and advice based on experience can become outdated. Furthermore I would be a lot more confident in what I am about to say if the OP lived in Australia, Britain or the UK rather than the US. Nonetheless my advice to the OP would be that if you really love philosophy then you should go for it, but ONLY if you really love it. No less than TWO of my colleagues at Otago have had successful careers in philosophy even though they got into academia as mature students, whilst a third is a successful philosopher having moved into it middle age from having been a professor of Religious Studies (he’s got a book on the Bible). Colin Cheyne is an ex-school-teacher who completed his PhD in his late forties. (Although his junior by about 10 years I marked his PhD thesis.) He has a substantial reputation as a philosopher of mathematics, though he is emphatically not a narrow specialist. He has a slew of papers, a book of his own and has coedited two others (a Festschrift for Alan Musgrave a collection of Pavel Tichy’s articles.) My two joint articles with him (one on the philosophy of mathematics and one on negative truths) are among my most cited and I know his solo papers do not go unremarked. He has served as President of the New Zealand Division of the AAP and in 2012 he got a well-deserved Festschrift of his own. James Maclaurin is a former actor who got into Philosophy (I think) in his late thirties. He too is a success with a well-regarded coauthored book and two coedited books to his credit, as well as papers in top journals such as the AJP. He is basically a philosopher of biology though he has also worked on metaphysics, the philosophy of time and the philosophy of religion. He is also a fine administrator, with a long period as departmental chair, and has won awards for his teaching. Greg Dawes is a little different since he was already an academic at Otago when he completed his second PhD in philosophy (again I was one of the examiners), though like the others he had a former life, this time as a priest. But he too has well-regarded book, a slew of articles and a coedited book to add to his publications in Religious Studies. So if you have the talent and the enthusiasm, philosophical success after forty is – or rather has been – a real possibility, at least in this country. Whether it is still a possibility and whether it is a possibility in the US as well as New Zealand, that I don’t know. But if you really love it and if, as it seems, you have a steady income – then I think it is worth giving it a go.

    Reply
  10. Anon

    I would like to throw a bucket here. My PhD was completed at 48. In the subsequent time, after my postdoc I found that I was not getting interviews, even though I was extremely well qualified and published, and had much teaching experience. After much rumination I concluded that this is because for entry level academic appointments universities globally are incredibly ageist. Over some threshold age, around 45, you are invisible and never considered for a position. If you like teaching, as I do, you will find yourself stuck as an adjunct without any of the perquisites (such as travel funds, holiday pay, or promotion) of an appointment, whether tenure track or not.

    Reply
  11. PhD student in his early/mid 30s

    Re: age discrimination while still in school. Following a successful career in the private sector, I (re-)started my BA when I was 30, and I'm now in a philosophy PhD program Leiter-ranked in the teens. So far, I've not experienced any overt age discrimination (that I'm aware of), though I'm a bit younger than Original Poster. True, my life situation is a bit different than the standardly young students, which makes for a natural potential social barrier; but, for me, that barrier hasn't been too problematic, especially if I don't go out of my way to make a point about it (e.g., "When I was your age…"; "You remember that scene in The Goonies when…"; etc.).

    Reply
  12. Original Poster

    Funny you bring this difference up. I will be applying to UK PhD/D.Phil programs in addition to US programs for this exact reason (advice provided to me through a different outlet due to the ageism issue….it does not seem to be much of a big deal outside of the US). I would also love to get a faulty job overseas especially in Europe as my wife is a dual US/EU citizen, but we are not averse to looking in Australia/NZ, Asia, or some parts of the Middle East (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Muscat). In my previous profession, I spent 8 of 15 years living abroad (Asia, Middle East, and Europe) and would love to do so again. Also, fantastic to hear that so many of your colleagues have been able to be successful later in life. Appreciate the optimistic outlook and advice!

    Reply
  13. Original Poster

    Very sorry to hear this. I know that I will be facing the same issues if I am lucky enough to be accepted into and then complete a PhD program. See my reply to Charles Pidgen for my backup plan. Do you think it matters what type of program you complete? For example, if someone my age (low-forties) is lucky enough to be accepted into a top 15-20 program (I know the likelihood of this happening is low, but hypothetically speaking), do you think that would enhance their chances of obtaining a faculty position later? When I scan the faculties of the places I would like to go, and even the places I would like to teach afterward (and they are not all top programs), the vast majority of those faculty have PhD's from top 40 or so programs, so its obvious that academic pedigree does play somewhat of a factor.

    Reply
  14. Original Poster

    Great to hear you have been able to make it work. In many ways, the background of older, non-traditional students can add a certain amount of diversity to programs. They also bring other characteristics that help them individually succeed (motivation, maturity, etc) which would seem to make them attractive candidates. I am sure some top programs are more accepting of non-traditional students than others. Its juts a matter of finding them and seeing if you would be a good fit into their program (ie. what you want to study fits their program).

    Reply
  15. Original Poster

    Having to replace part of a team is never fun, especially if that position maybe pulled away from the department once it is vacated. Another great (yet discouraging) insight I had not thought of.

    Reply
  16. Thirtysomething job-seeker

    I would just caution you (and anyone considering graduate school) not to be overconfident that researching the job market and experience as an MA is sufficient for "having no illusions" and "understanding the risks." The PhD program is not just more of same as the MA, writing for top journals isn't just polishing your MA thesis, and the pressures of the job market can suck away the time, energy, and confidence that once allowed you to enjoy the intrinsic value of the search for knowledge and wisdom.

    The question to ask yourself is whether you can afford to spend the next 5+ years doing something that is intrinsically worthwhile and rewarding, at the end of which you are professionally back where you started – doing low-paid adjunct work. If so, then grad school can be a great, intellectually rewarding experience. If not, then it's a really bad bet.

    One final point, in response to Older Grad Student: If you "can't imagine doing anything else," that's actually a really good reason NOT to go to on to the PhD. If you can't imagine doing anything else, you probably also can't imagine doing all the non-philosophical tasks that are necessary for successful job applications.

    Reply
  17. Forty and then some

    I was 47 when I completed my PhD (at an unranked program). Was hired immediately into a research postdoc, and 2 years later landed a tenure-track position at a research university. So… can it be done? Yes. I was hired, in part, because of the diversity of my previous experience and skills — I bring things to my department that a traditional grad with less experience just doesn't have. The non-traditional path has its benefits, perhaps even more so in the current, very difficult philosophy job market. But… don't go into debt to get a PhD!

    Reply
  18. Rachel

    Honestly, if you have the privilege and resources to take a chance in following your passion, do it. You're not getting younger. My advice would be: only go through with the PhD if you're okay with things not working out, and you end up going back to the private sector (having had a blast, one hopes, during your graduate school years).

    Reply
  19. Original Poster

    Appreciate the "tough love". You are right…no matter what I might think, the experience will be different, tougher, filled with unknowns, etc. that I cannot foresee now. And every job has its "housekeeping" as I call it – work that sucks but that must be done if you want to do the fun stuff. My last job was filled to the rim with it. No matter what though, it will be a roll of the dice.

    Reply
  20. Original Poster

    Fantastic to hear you succeeded! I would hope that my previous experiences would be seen as adding value to any program I might apply for (either as a PhD student or a Professor), especially since what I want to do in Philosophy relates to what I did in my previous life…so I would not be completely starting over.

    Reply
  21. Original Poster

    You only live once, Rachel. I am very lucky to have been given a second chance and to be in a position to pursue a passion, even with my disability. The bottomline is this: I can't do what I used to do – a career I truly loved and would go back to in a heart beat if I could. But, I have to start over. And if I am going to start over, I am going to roll the dice and go after what I want. But, everything I have learned from the commentators here will be invaluable information that I take with me as start over in the hopes that I can avoid any pitfalls that may surprise me along the way. Thanks for the encouragement!

    Reply
  22. Michael B

    "The bottomline is this: I can't do what I used to do – a career I truly loved and would go back to in a heart beat if I could. But, I have to start over."

    My heart goes out to you. And I'd say go for it. Was a mature post grad myself. Learned I wasn't interested in being a university philosopher. Worth it for the peace of mind. Actually helped me confirm what I do want to do.

    You worked hard and got into something you loved and had it snatched away from you by something that was, for all I know, tragic. I'm astonished and inspired by your positive attitude. Compared to what you say in the quote above, getting to within touching distance only of a philosophy job seems like, well, I think you have the right to say how tough that might be and how to handle it, not me.

    As for only doing it if you're happy to not get the job: well I'm all for balancing probabilities, but this just seems odd. You already don't have the job. You're older, and older people might have a harder time getting PhD-level jobs, so you'd better not try. Now you remain without the job. Aha! You were right all along! Better to fail to try than try and fail, eh? Hmm.

    The probability of winning Olympic gold, or even national gold, is very, very small. How it compares to getting a philosophy academic job I don't know. But I don't suppose those athletes at an analogous level to starting a PhD are happy just to hit personal bests and not win anything, nor should they be. Otherwise they could just join a gym. Should people only apply to acting school or medical school if they are not too invested in being doctors or actors? How strange.

    The PhD is a vocational degree training one to be a professional researcher. If one is not fussed about getting a professional research job, then one could just teach, save the money and get a library card.

    Good luck OP and I look forward to reading a follow up post in 5 years or whatever about your first interview.

    *Caveat* (my post included): it's really easy to 'advise' people on big life decisions when it's not you that has to do it. It's exciting and risky and a lot of personal stuff seeps through. Whatever you feel will allow you to look in the mirror with most pride, do that.

    Reply
  23. V. Alan White

    Three bits of nothing more than anecdata. My undergrad philosophy prof at a small school (now Northwest Nazarene University) won me over to double-major in philosophy as well my declared major and I took almost all my classes from him (nine I think). He was excellent in history of philosophy and inspired me to pursue a career in the profession, as well as three others in my cohort. Three of us four went on to become tenured professors, which is a tribute to one person at a campus of a few hundred students. He was a minister who entered grad school (Boston U) in his late 40s and got his PhD at 55. He taught only 10 years or so but had an incredible impact.

    Coincidentally my brother, a life-long police officer, took evening classes (in criminal justice) for 30 years, graduating with a PhD at the same age–55. He recently received tenure at a college similar to my undergrad school at the age of 63.

    At my own campus we just this year hired a TT assistant professor of geography. He's 63.

    Again, anecdata from my own little world, and I know the mileage varies wildly in the larger scope of the profession as other posters have noted. Best of luck Original Poster.

    Reply
  24. Original Poster

    Thank you to everyone who took the time to provide commentary. Your advice, anecdotes, warnings, and encouragement are all very much appreciated and noted. I wish the best to you all!

    PS: I am certainly open to additional advice if anyone else is willing to provide it.

    Reply

Designed with WordPress