Leiter Reports: A Philosophy Blog

News and views about philosophy, the academic profession, academic freedom, intellectual culture, and other topics. The world’s most popular philosophy blog, since 2003.

  1. J.P. Loo's avatar
  2. Sebastian Sunday Grève's avatar
  3. Giovanni Molteni Tagliabue's avatar
  4. Fabien Muller's avatar
  5. Saul Smilansky's avatar

Reader reaction on The Epistemology of Political Commentary: Lawson v. Hellie

(I’ve activated comments for this one, and invite further contributions. No anonymous posts. I will also delete idiotic, gratuitously insulting remarks etc. [non-gratuitous polemics are welcome, of course!].)

Leading administrative law expert and distinguished and prolific BU law professor Gary Lawson writes with the following comments:

“I’m puzzled by why you thought it was worthwhile to post Benjamin Hellie’s empty screed on bloggers. I say empty because someone could write exactly the same piece, almost verbatim, but switch the characterizations of the left and right simply by defining justice as, e.g., keeping what belongs to you instead of evenly distributing wealth and power. In that case, left-wing bloggers become, on Hellie s reasoning, presumptive liars because they are consistently defending injustice. This does not seem like a very constructive line to pursue.

“The intellectual ball could be advanced by a serious discussion about the nature of justice. (If Hellie does not think that any such discussion is necessary because justice just is, self-evidently, evenly distributing wealth and power, he is in the wrong line of work.) The ball could also be advanced if someone clever could figure out a way objectively to assess the intellectual integrity of various blog sites and then survey a sufficient number empirically to test propositions about left-leaning and right-leaning blogs. But one hardly needs to smear Professor Hellie to harumph at his post. Way below the usual standards, I m afraid.”

Philosopher Benj. Hellie from Cornell replies:

“Lawson should deploy the powers of exegesis he learned in law school on uncovering the causal mechanism I lay out in the following paragraph [from the original posting]:

‘People do not like injustice. The knowledge that injustice is being done to others offends their sense of morality; the knowledge that injustice is being done to them makes them angry and resentful. Both these emotions contribute to a desire to use the political system in order to counter injustice. So it is very helpful for the right wing to achieve its goal if the existence of injustice, and the unjust effects of the policies it endorses, can be concealed.’

“Lawson alleges that you can substitute in `keeping what belongs to you’ for justice rather than `evenly distributing wealth and power’ (note I said nothing about the desirability to anyone of absolute equality: my claim is that we are at present in a state of obscene inequality and getting worse, and that it would be desirable to nearly all to make things more equal) and get an argument that left-wingers are liars. He seems to think I argued as follows: * right-wingers support injustice * therefore right-wingers are liars.

“This manoeuvre shows Lawson’s grasp of the argument to be on a par with his grasp of psychology and his grasp of the intense degree of suffering the libertarian policies he endorses have caused, both in the third world and at home.

“What I actually argued was A. right-wingers support things that are against the interests of the vast majority B. if the vast majority knew this, what right-wingers support could not exist C. therefore right-wingers are liars.

“So suppose that Lawson’s parallel argument runs like this: D. left-wingers support things that are against the alleged property rights of a tiny minority E. if the vast majority knew this, what left-wingers support could not exist F. therefore left-wingers are liars.

“Grant D. What about E?

“*First: even if what Lawson said were correct, this would have no effect on polemic in favor of policies directing more resources toward the poor in the future: everyone would be able to “keep what belongs to them” on those policies; they would merely prevent inequality from becoming more hideous.

“* Second: Lawson needs to show that if people were aware that taxation (for instance) involves people not being able to ‘keep what belongs to them”, they would be appalled — and that the degree to which they would be appalled would outweigh the degree to which they would be appalled if they were aware of how hideous inequality is at present. (At least for those who, unlike Lawson, are not benefitting from this hideous inequality.) This is so laughable as to not be worth belaboring, but I’ll do it anyway since the issue is important. People are already aware that taxation involves redistribution; only libertarian loons and the black helicopter crowd are whipped into a state of moral frenzy by this fact. Does Lawson really think that the 95% of Americans who have been made worse off by Reaganite upward redistribution would rather continue to have their condition worsen in order that the minority of the opulent might continue with their hoarding? What about the tens of millions of Latin American peasants who have been looted, immiserated, and cruelly suppressed? Time to get out of the ivory tower, Lawson.

“*Third: Lawson presupposes that everyone else share his opinion about what belongs to whom. Does the two trillion dollars directed upward between 1980 and 2010 in the US alone belong to those who figured out how to game the system to snatch it up, or to those whose activities they are exploiting? The point is not what the answer to this is, it’s what people would think if it were put to them: while Lawson might disagree, surely I and Nobel Prize winning economist George Akerlof are not the only ones who regard this massive upward redistribution as ‘a kind of looting”.

“Finally note that for the purposes of the argument, it does not matter what the correct definition of `justice’ is: argument A, B, C does not use it. The word `justice’ is used in the argument for purposes of abbreviation and rhetorical effect.”

UPDATE: Hellie responds to his critics, below, here.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

50 responses to “Reader reaction on The Epistemology of Political Commentary: Lawson v. Hellie”

  1. Hellie's argument is:
    A. right-wingers support things that are against the interests of the vast majority
    B. if the vast majority knew this, what right-wingers support could not exist
    C. therefore right-wingers are liars.

    It seem that there is an implicit premise that we need in order for C to follow from A and B. Thus, I would add:

    B1. The only possible account of public ignorance about the a political belief system is lying by those espousing the belief system.

    The problem is that B1 seems implausible in the extreme. I mean, we have all this really clever people like Lieter and Hollie to explain to us what A is true?! If we imagine that there is some other account for public ignorance, e.g. rational ignorance (can I invoke public-choice theory without its sometime association with "right-wingers" leading inevitably to the conclusion that I am liar?), then Hollie's argument in favor of C becomes extremely suspect. Given that fact that many rightwingers seem to reject the truth of A, even if A is objectively true when it is coupled with some plausible rejection of B1, C does not follow. Indeed, it becomes rather implausible.

  2. Corrections:
    "I mean, we have all these really clever people like Lieter and Hollie to explain to us that A is true?!"

    "Many rightwingers seem to reject the truth of A. Even if A is objectively true, when its (mistaken) rejection by rightwingers is coupled with some plausible rejection of B1, C does not follow. "

  3. Deepak Mirchandani

    If I might add a modified form of Nate Orman's missing premise…

    It seems that Hellie is conflating the two statements:
    a) "right-wingers support things that are against the interests of the vast majority"
    and
    b) "It is the intent of right-wingers to support things that are against the interests of the vast majority"

    If Hellie could show that (a) & (b) are indeed the same, then I'd agree that his conclusion follows, but not otherwise.

    I do agree that the effect of right-wingers' policies (let's be really general about what a 'right-winger' is…) is detrimental. And I don't think most of the well-meaning ones realise this. But I don't think one can claim that they have malevolent intentions, which is what, I think, you'd need, to prove that they're 'lying.'

  4. A small side point to the dispute — it is not true that people have any strong negative reaction to knowledge of injustice. It would be nice if we did, but the facts are otherwise. I think a better approach is in terms of status quo. Rightwing arguments are less directed at change. But I am not really up to a serious development at this point.

  5. It just does not follow from saying that certain policies tend to cause injustice that proponents of those policies must be lying. You could say that they have a greater *motivation* to lie, but that is different. Advocates of unjust policies may correctly report suffering due to their policies but genuinely believe that such suffering is not unjust but deserved, or unavoidably linked to "the greater good" in some way. They can do this with perfectly good intentions. Those who are suffering may agree with them (perhaps this is false consciousness. There is of course widespread disagreement about the criteria for "just" vs. "unjust" suffering. The argument that a particular instance of suffering due to the status quo is unjust or avoidable often rests on complex counterfactual arguments (what would happen if social systems were different) that can only be assessed in probablistic terms. Given the huge psychological and ideological investments people have in the status quo it is not surprising that they could be genuinely mistaken about the injustice of a policy.

    Implying that right-wing political theorists are not simply mistaken in good faith but consciously lie in order to cover up what they know to be the patent injustice of their policies is a huge insult to both their personal and intellectual integrity. It is unlikely to get the speaker a fair hearing. Hellie's comments come off more as a cri de couer from a frustrated leftist than anything else.

    He probably would have been better off addressing himself to the honesty of the Bush Republican agenda specifically, which actually contradicts classic conservatism in many ways, and is internally contradictory to boot. It is harder to see rationalizing Bush's various statements without some kind of conscious desire to deceive somewhere along the way. This is Paul Krugman's point.

  6. Actually Nate Oman's posts cover all this more succinctly than I did. Gracchus is on point too. Let's grant that right-wing policies cause suffering. Hellie seems to assume that when policies cause widespread suffering the suffering must be concealed in order to get any support from the population. But that's not true; abuse often increases the victim's emotional ties to the oppressor. Leaders are often most popular when they are sending people off to war (which is surely maximal suffering). The emotional charge created by suffering can easily be redirected to create further support for the oppressive system; those left-wing hippie bastards are too lazy to put their nose to the grindstone like I had to. Hellie seems to have read a lot of Marx but not much Freud.

  7. Comment 1: Presidential candidates

    The other comments are correct thatC does not follow from A and B
    without some other connections. Interestly, this argument is
    frequently (and correctly) made about Democratic presidential candidates
    and their general-election positions. Hellie said,

    "What I actually argued was A. right-wingers support things that are
    against the interests of the vast majority B. if the vast majority knew
    this, what right-wingers support could not exist C. therefore right-
    wingers are liars.

    As applied to, say, Dukakis in 1988, this runs

    A. Dukakis support things that are against the interests of the
    majority of voters
    B. if the voters knew this, Dukakis would lose
    B1. Dukakis wants to win more than he wants to be honest
    C. therefore Dukakis became a liar.

    The only problem was that Bush the Elder revealed that Dukakis was
    indeed a liberal.

    This argument could perhaps be applied to conservative candidates
    too– I'd be interested in seeing that done, since I haven't seen it.
    (Usually liberals seem to think a conservative's conservatism is too
    flaunted rather than too concealed.)

  8. Comment 2: Hallie's reply misses Lawson's argument entirely.

    Hallie says:

    "What I actually argued was A. right-wingers support things that are
    against the interests of the vast majority B. if the vast majority knew
    this, what right-wingers support could not exist C. therefore right-
    wingers are liars.

    "So suppose that Lawson's parallel argument runs like this: D. left-
    wingers support things that are against the alleged property rights of a
    tiny minority E. if the vast majority knew this, what left-wingers
    support could not exist F. therefore left-wingers are liars.

    Lawson's parallel argument is not that at all, though. It states
    Hallie's original argument rather better than Hallie did himself. Let
    me try. The ABC formalism is helpful.

    Hallie:

    A. Right-wingers support injustice (because the current distribution of
    wealth is unjust)

    B. People dislike injustice, and would not support someone they knew
    was unjust.

    B1. Rightwingers value support more than the truth.

    C. Therefore Rightwingers lie about their positions.

    Parallel Hallie:

    AA. Left-wingers support injustice (because redistribution of wealth
    is unjust)

    BB. People dislike injustice, and would not support someone they knew
    was unjust.

    BB1. Leftwingers value support more than the truth.

    CC. Therefore Leftwingers lie about their positions.

    Lawson points out that Premise AA is just as plausible as Premise A.

    I might point out that premise BB1 is actually more plausible than
    Premise B1. Rightwingers tend to believe in absolute truth, divine
    retribution for wrongdoing, and such things, so they have a reason to
    value truth. Leftwingers tend to believe that truth is relative, that
    power is what matters, that morality is flexible, and that what is
    important is to advance good causes. If so,then a rightwinger values
    truth but a leftwinger does not think truth is even a coherent concept,
    so "lying" is nothing objectionable.

    But Professor Leiter, you're the Nietzsche-Marx-Freud fan, I think.
    What do you think?

    I think I'll post Comment 2 on my own weblog too.

  9. The problem with comments is that they attract bottom feeders with pseudonyms like BigMacAttack.

    Anyway.

    I do not think Hellie is necessarily presuming that right wing commentators are liars. As in they deliberately tell falsehoods. He might be but he might not be. I will give him the benefit of the doubt.

    As Leiter notes –

    'Note, by the way, that nothing here turns on whether any right-wing political writer intends to conceal injustice.'

    If the ideology of the right is false, if right wing writers defend that ideology, it follows that they are more likely to present falsehoods. (Though that assumption is based on assumptions, actually conservative, about human nature and in the abstract does not logically follow. At least that is my claim.) That does not mean that they intend to present falsehoods. Intent is irrelevant.

    That doesn’t mean Hellie is right. He isn’t. But I don’t have time for that.

  10. If we forget "justice" and replace it with "self-interest", Hellie's argument seems right if loose. He correctly identifies where the difference between right and left lies and it's nothing to do with justice but interests. Right-wing policies are overwhelmingly against the interests of the majority. Moreover, the majority are not just hypothetically but actually unaware of this. If they were not then they would certainly alter the system in their favour. Thus, the right do have the motivation to keep the majority in the dark about their true circumstances. Given the likely premise that those on the right are not all completely retarded, you have to suspect that they not only have the motivation to keep the majority in the dark but that they act on it.

    You can get out of this by arguing that there is some concept of true justice that motivates but good luck on that. You could also argue that the insane imbalance of wealth in the US really is to the benefit of the majority but once again that would require Herculian self-deception. You could also argue, contrary to my previous comments, that those on the right are too retarded to realise that the status quo is not in the interests of the majority. I would enjoy this but I'm not sure it's going to wash.

    Hallie may have been loose but you know what he was getting at and you know he's basically right – so quit knit-picking.

  11. I would say that Professor Lawson has gotten it just about exactly right: since there is more than one way to define "justice," and Professor Hellie must surely know this fact, his quasi-syllogism is indeed empty. Nor does Hellie help his case by failing to define "right-winger."

    Hellie tries to counter Lawson by restating his argument, and making a stab at defining justice, as follows: "What I actually argued was A. right-wingers support things that are against the interests of the vast majority B. if the vast majority knew this, what right-wingers support could not exist C. therefore right-wingers are liars." I'll assume that "against the interests of the vast majority" is another way of saying "unjust." Well, depending on what Hellie understands by "right-winger," right wing might mean: opposition to Marxism, the most immiserating ideology of the last century; or support for relatively free markets, which have produced more wealth for more people (including the poor) than any other economic system; or a preference for freedom of expression and due process over coercive, arbitrary egalitarianism. All these things have been tarred with the sobriquet "right wing"; all, I would argue, are in the interest of the vast majority. "Right wing" might of course mean a whole bunch of much more unsavory stuff; but since the term is undefined, all the sinister associations of fascism and the like can hang in the air, so to speak, whether or not they're appropriate here.

    Hellie also makes what might be an empirically testable suggestion: "Thus, a priori, given that injustice exists and that right-wing policies are unjust, you might expect the ample use of lies, misdirection, and sophistry from these guys. By contrast, the role of left-wing political writers is to cause people to believe that there is injustice, and that right-wing policies make it worse. Given, once again, that both these points are true, all that left wing political writers need to do is report the truth." I can't resist asking: if everything is as Hellie assumes, and leftists need merely report the truth, why is Noam Chomsky so consistently mendacious and sophistical? Why have so many on the left chosen to lie, and lie, and lie on behalf of this or that murderous regime or gang of terrorists? Are they just not as smart as Professor Hellie?

  12. Interesting debate. I'd like to buy Hellie's argument, but on an intellectual level, I just can't do it. By the same token, if I leaned right-of-center, I'd want to buy Lawson's argument, too, but it doesn't wash, either. Before we can declare Hellie's or Lawson's argument a winner, we first need to agree on a definition of "truth" and a definition of "justice." From my (obviously) non-philosophical perspective, those definitions depend entirely on which side of the ideological fence you happen to sit. Am I missing something? If so, it wouldn't be the first time. If not, I look forward to the "truth" and "justice" smackdown.

  13. Hellie's post seems to assume that there is only one sense of the word 'interest'. We can talk about people's normative interests, which is the sense in which right-wing policies go against the majority's interests. But we can also talk about descriptive interests. People may value 'living in a free country', or fantasize that they have an unknown rich uncle who will leave them a lot of money if there's no estate tax. These are obviously irrational, and it's still unethical politics for the right to exploit them. Nevertheless, if these interests are a major factor in how people vote, Hellie's argument doesn't go through.

    While people's descriptive interests may be wrong, it doesn't have to be the case that they are being lied to. There need be no statistics, no details of legislation that are being misreported. All the right would have to do is prey off of people's inability to recognize their real interests. Also, descriptive interests may be quite indeterminate. Do unionization and minimum wage laws make people freer? Give me a robust and detailed notion of freedom (a normative interest), and I can show you that they do. But people's descriptive interests are often so ill-defined that we can't say whether they are actually served by any given policy, other than by watching how people vote. If all I know is that you 'want to live in a free country' everything I say to you will be mere rhetoric.

    Its an empirical question as to whether these types of interests play a big enough role to make people with good information vote republican. I doubt that they are, but Hellie's argument still has problems, because it acts as if there's only one notion of interest, which is both what rational agents would pursue, and also causally effective.

    Note: Normative and descriptive are really terrible words for what I'm trying to say.

  14. My line on Hellie, posted a while back on my site:

    Benjamin Helle's post, seconded by Brian Leiter,on the left as the proponent of justice and the right as the defender of injustice provokes two thoughts:

    1) To dream of an ideological system from which moralistic anger is purged, with all leftists and rightists regarding the other side as mistaken but not as immoral or illegitimate is to dream a vain dream. Anger inheres in the system. But what is called for is anger of different sorts, and anger that checks anger…including the anger of the leftist or the rightist who finds some of his fellow partisans uncharitable, vicious, and obtuse in their denial of legitimacy to the other side.

    2) I agree with Hellie and Leiter that there are asymmetries between left and right, though not with Hellie's simplistic "left good-right bad" asymmetry. One asymmetry I see: I don't believe there is a significant, influential community of people in the US and other left-right democracies who feel in their gut both the righteousness of con pro-capitalist economics and the righteousness of con traditionalism on culture and religion. Plenty of people feel the righteousness of one kind of conservatism or the other, but coalition politics is required to bring them together. On the other hand, there is absolutely a significant if not numerically large community–epitomized by Hellie and Leiter and many other left-lib intellectuals–who feel in their gut both the righteousness of lib egalitarian economics and the righteousness of lib vanguard positions on culture. I'm more or less such a person myself…but I find the conjoined righteousnesses of the left-lib intellectual class much more a matter of concern than of satisfaction.

  15. I posted a response to this when I read it. Hellie's post right or wrong is silly. It's not a question of logic but of predisposition. There are plenty of conservatives -rich and poor- who would argue that the only alternative to order, even unjust order, is chaos. And there are plenty of leftoids who oppose the rule of law, preferring the rule of man, which I think -I hope- any lawyer should argue is chaos. Chomsky's 'rabbinical' humanism, arguing not that we are different from animals but that we must be different from them, helps him to be a kick ass reporter of the failure of our leaders, but it also marks him as an idiot as a political philosopher. People are greedy. People are jealous. People who are not rich want to be rich. (not all of them of course.) If Hellie wants to have his fun, let him, but logic and human behavior rarely go hand in hand. Why does David Brooks need to worship the power of those he thinks of as greater than he? Why does he value servitude? Why does he think it moral to do so? Philosophers- the title given to logicians these days- can have all the fun they want; the rest of us will continue reading Shakespeare and Freud.

  16. Hellie's response makes his original post look good.

    Are we supposed to take this:

    People do not like injustice. The knowledge that injustice is being done to others offends their sense of morality; the knowledge that injustice is being done to them makes them angry and resentful. Both these emotions contribute to a desire to use the political system in order to counter injustice.

    to be equivalent to this:

    What I actually argued was A. right-wingers support things that are against the interests of the vast majority B. if the vast majority knew this, what right-wingers support could not exist C. therefore right-wingers are liars.
    _______

    Since when does self-interest equal the desire for justice?

  17. I posted the following comment (for link, click on my name) on Catallarchy in response to Hellie's original post:

    I generally enjoy reading Brian Leiter, even though he is pretty far to the left. Even when he posts something with which I disagree, which is true most of the time, I can still respect his writing ability and intellect. But this quote, which "strikes [him] as exactly right," is just silly. What is the intended message Benjamin Hellie is trying to convey? Of course the left believes it's own ideology is just and the ideology of the right is unjust, in the same way the right believes the reverse. That is why people often disagree so vehemently in politics, in a way that people do not disagree in other venues.

    But where is the argument here? Simply stating "me good, you bad" isn't very interesting, nor does it have any chance of changing anyone else's mind, nor does it even do much to make those who already agree with Benjamin Hellie any more confident in their position. It is the literary equivalent of a caveman grunt, and I can't understand why someone like Brian Leiter would find such a silly comment at all worth quoting, or why someone like Benjamin Hellie (who I am not familiar with, but is presumably smart enough to be a professional philosopher) would find it at all worth writing. I've heard more intelligent political commentary from Rush Limbaugh.

  18. " Of course the left believes it's own ideology is just and the ideology of the right is unjust, in the same way the right believes the reverse. "

    I'm not entirely convinced this is correct. I know the principle of charity is supposed imply that I am not supposed to impute that my opponents' motiviation for holding their political view is inherently different from mine – but I really do suspect a significant percentage of the political right really do say what they say out of venal self-interest rather than out of any principled understanding of justice which prioritizes property rights and the conservation of existing social structures.

    Of course there obviously are some people on the right who hold exactly those kinds of principled views – but I suspect it's no coincidence that right-wing positions on the whole tend to hold sway among the wealthy.

    Obviously the right wing critic can make the entirely reasonable point that those on the left are often arguing in their self-interest too (assuming that redistribution via taxation will benefit them) – now it just becomes a contest between two different forms of self-interest and here's where I think Hellie has some kind of point.

    In a contest between two groups trying to further their own interests the minority group (particulary if it is MUCH smaller than the other) has a vested interest in mischaracterising the terms of the debate — where the debate itself will be partially settled by majority vote.

    I'm not massively persuaded by the arguments either way…I don't think Hellie's argument is a good one, but I suspect it does capture some kind of base intuition about motives for and against honesty that do exist in our political system [perhaps because deep down I just have this ingrained view that many on the right wing ARE a bunch of venal self-interested crooks… Growing up in Thatcherite Britain tends to do that sort of thing to you.]

  19. Even in its refurbished form, Hellie's argument remains faulty. As I noted in prolix fashion at http://cka3n.blogspot.com, this is useless knowledge.

    Assume, for a moment, that you have yet to take a side. That is, you are exactly the sort of person to whom both the left and the right is trying to appeal. What information can you get from Hellie's argument? None – because you haven't yet decided whose arguments are in your best interest. And if you did know whose position was in your best interest, would you really care if they were also lying to you?

    I can only think of two hopes for Hellie's argument:

    1. It establishes a new, but only marginally different program for supporters of the left. That is, instead of merely looking for faults in the arguments of the right, they now also look for purposeful lying.

    2. It renders civil discussion less civil.

    Neither of those seems to be a particular worthy aim.

  20. "I really do suspect a significant percentage of the political right really do say what they say out of venal self-interest"

    And sometimes I really do suspect that a significant percentage of the political left really do say what they say out of venal jealousy. So what? I don't think it is wise or even possible to generalize about such a large and diverse group of people as the left or the right. And where does it get us? Does it help the argument to say that my side has good motives and your side intentionally (or even unintentionally) commits evil?

    "I suspect it's no coincidence that right-wing positions on the whole tend to hold sway among the wealthy."

    Is this actually true? I've heard, although cannot comfirm, that wealth is not a good indicator of political affiliation in the US. Religious observance is one of the few that generally separate the right from the left.

    "In a contest between two groups trying to further their own interests the minority group (particulary if it is MUCH smaller than the other) has a vested interest in mischaracterising the terms of the debate"

    But in order to make this argument, you must first assume that a pro-free market ideology only benefits a small number of people. As a libertarian, I reject this assumption strongly, as do many conservatives, and a large majority of mainstream economists.

  21. "If the ideology of the right is false, if right wing writers defend that ideology, it follows that they are more likely to present falsehoods."

    Yes. This is, I think, the core of the argument. I agree with it.

    However, the argument needs some filling in. E.g., Noam Chomsky (a man of the left) believes that the foreign policy pronouncements of "Dissent-style worshippers of American power" are systematically unreliable. Michael Walzer (another man of the left), rest assured, is similarly skeptical of claims made by members of the "indecent" (i.e. Chomskyite) left.

    Also, as Peter Singer argues in his smart polemic, _A Darwinian Left_, the (typically leftist) commitment to believing that humans are virtually infinitely malleable (under socailism, "The average human type will rise to the heights of an Aristotle, a Goethe, or a Marx") leads folks to say some pretty nutty things about human nature (empty, meaningless, a signifier without a referent) and evolutionary psychology (vapid, inherently racist, sexist).

  22. Krugman's column in today's times (for link, click on my name) provides an excellent confirmation instance of Benj's claim:

    "What's playing out in America right now is the bait-and-switch strategy known on the right as "starve the beast." The ultimate goal is to slash government programs that help the poor and the middle class, and use the savings to cut taxes for the rich. But the public would never vote for that.

    So the right has used deceptive salesmanship to undermine tax enforcement and push through upper-income tax cuts. And now that deficits have emerged, the right insists that they are the result of runaway spending, which must be curbed."

    Every day, the American Progress Report documents similarly outrageous cases of willful deception coming from the administration and right-wing institutions and pundits. So (to work Benj's argument backwards) what's the best explanation of this deception? Presumably they aren't being deceitful just for the hell of it (ha ha, pulled one over on those idiots again!) — rather, there's a *need* for it. And the most salient need would seem to be that truthfully laying bare the right wing agenda of "starving the beast" wouldn't play well among the vast majority who are going to be starved, along multiple dimensions of basic human needs and security, right along with it.

    So, again working Benj's argument backward, the most plausible inference to the best explanation of the rampantly misleading portrayal of right wing policies is that such deception is required in order for these policies to be endorsed by the majority. Conveniently and interestingly enough, no such backwards inference to the best explanation can be run to the conclusion that deception is required in order to implement the leftist agenda. You simply don't see such deception: there is nothing to explain.

    But clearly, the standard-bearers of the right have nothing to fear from such argumentation. After all, they now control the media, the White House, both branches of Congress, the Supreme Court, and all regulatory agencies. And if all else fails, they can count on people like Lawson and his fellow commentators for help in the subtler deception of nit-picking the truth to death, by putting the definitions of 'justice' as 'getting to keep what you have' and 'making sure that everyone has their basic human needs met' (aside: note that even this contrast spells out the truth too clearly — to make his point, Lawson had to resort to a deceptively inaccurate characterization of lefty justice as "evenly distributing wealth and power") on a par; or by noting that, at a certain (irrelevant, but who's noticing?) level of abstraction, both lefties and righties are working in their own self-interest.

    Apropos of the latter point, the final irony is that the majority of advocates of right-wing policies are members of the majority whose self-interest is being undermined by these very policies: among other things, it's their social security that's about to go down the tubes, their pensions that were raided.

  23. "The final irony is that the majority of advocates of right-wing policies are members of the majority whose self-interest is being undermined by these very policies."
    Big big news, rilly. Now at least we have a subject worth discussing.
    Why is this? Is it just that the majority have no time to think through the issues? Is it that they've been trained to think of themselves as sheep? [The Catholic church is great for that.] Is it that under conditions of economic stability small communities are self supporting and that therefore their members have no pressing no need think big thoughts? In this regard Greenpoint Brooklyn is small town USA. This would also tend to contradict the argument I was forced to listed to today, made by some asshole from the Cato Institute, that EVERYONE IS OR SHOULD BE GREEDY. Brilliant bit of logic there.
    But in fact most of the peasants are not greedy, they are lazy and just want to be left the fuck alone. And they are willing to do what they are told when it comes to the big issues, in order to have that little bit of freedom. When pushed too much, however, they'll get restless.

    The greedy want adventure, intellectuals want adventure, though not necessarily of the same sort. Teenagers want adventure! But most people want none. They may be boring or lazy or provincial, and are immensely frustrating in their ability to confuse the grand schemes of those who want to lead them, or protect them, or save them, or rip them off; but these are the vast majority of human beings. And in this country they want to be left alone whether they have three car garages, or no car at all (though even they have a tv.) We live in a rich and lazy country, I'd love it if some of you tried your hand at describing it. But all we have here is a debate between the the greedy and the morally indignant. How perfectly American. How blind.

  24. I was a little bit unclear about this part of Benj's original posting:

    "We're sick and tired of the following argument:

    "You wouldn't accept George Will's having argued that p as justification for accepting p; and your grounds for not doing so would be that Will is a right-winger. Since left-wing political writers and right-wing political writers are symmetrical, it follows that so-and-so's having argued that p does not (by itself) justify acceptance of p because so-and-so is a left-winger."

    As far as I can tell, the scenario we're supposed to imagine is this: A right-winger, Augusto, and a left-winger, Fidel, are having an argument, say, about the effects of the minimum wage. Augusto says that the minimum wage causes unemployment, and cites an article by George Will as support for his claim. Fidel denies that the minimum wage causes unemployment, and cites an article by David Corn as support for his claim. Presumably, what Benj is saying is that Will's article doesn't provide any evidential support for Augusto's claim, whereas Corn's article does. The reason Will's article doesn't provide any support is that Will is a right-winger, and right-wingers, unintentionally or not, support injustice–that is, the interests of a tiny few at the expense of the great majority. On the other hand, left-wingers like Corn support justice–that is, the interests of the great majority at the expense of the tiny few. Consequently, we should expect Will to oppose those policies that lead to a just society, and support those policies that lead to an unjust society; similarly, we should expect Corn to oppose policies that lead to an unjust society and support policies that lead to a just society. If we want to support the creation of a just society, then we should listen to Corn and not to Will, and so we should conclude that Fidel's argument from authority is licit while Augusto's is illicit.

    First, I'm perfectly open to the suggestion that I've misunderstood Benj and Jessica. I've done history of philosophy long enough at least to know that my initial interpretations of arguments are quite often ones that I later regard as way off-base. If I have misinterpreted, then I apologize, and ignore the rest of what I say.

    That said, I have a reservation about the argument. It seems to me that both Fidel and Augusto are relying on bad arguments from authority. Rather than cite George Will or David Corn, who are both polemicists, they should cite distinguished labor economists who have worked on the empirical issues surrounding the minimum wage. So, if Benj is saying that what Fidel is doing is licit, I disagree–I don't think Fidel should rely on the likes of David Corn (who, while he may be a good journalist, is, I presume, not a serious economic thinker) in the first place.

    On another note, the whole point about right-wing politicans, think tanks, and intellectuals concealing their true political agendas–say, about starving the beast–from the public is, I imagine, probably right. But I don't think right-wingers conceal because they know their policies hurt the vast majority of people; rather, they believe that their policies help the vast majority of people, but they don't believe their policies, if presented to the people, would win the day. This might be because they think people are too stupid, naive, impressionable, or whatever, but I don't think this is unique to the right. I imagine, for instance, that many members of the gun control lobby want to ban all guns, but they would never say this to the public–not yet, anyway–because they would get crushed if they made that known. Similarly, I wouldn't be too surprised if a lot of atheists thought that the demise of intstitutionalized religion would be a good thing for the world that should be encouraged with certain policies; but any atheist in the political realm would be crazy to present this view to the American people (heck, any politician who came out as an atheist at all would be in big trouble).

  25. Robert wrote, "That said, I have a reservation about the argument. It seems to me that both Fidel and Augusto are relying on bad arguments from authority. Rather than cite George Will or David Corn, who are both polemicists, they should cite distinguished labor economists who have worked on the empirical issues surrounding the minimum wage. So, if Benj is saying that what Fidel is doing is licit, I disagree–I don't think Fidel should rely on the likes of David Corn (who, while he may be a good journalist, is, I presume, not a serious economic thinker) in the first place."

    Maybe this is just my naïve commitment to a reliabilist epistemology shining through, but it seems to me that the strength of an argument from authority depends on whether the authority in question consistently “gets it right,” and not on whether he/she/it possesses some particular level of expertise.

  26. Lawson's principle that people should be allowed to keep what they own can be used to indict the very economic system of which he is so enamored: workers under capitalism have their time stolen from them by their employers. I own not only my guitar, computer, books, etc. but also my time. Thus, according to Lawson's principle, just as I should not be required to give away any of the former items, my employer should not be allowed to make me work longer than is necessary to support my family so as to profit from my labor.

  27. Robert, again, you are making the same assumption about justice that Marx made: that employers forcefully take their employees' "surplus" wages. I put "surplus" in quotes because those who do not share a Marxist viewpoint do not consider profits to be exploited surplus wages, nor do do they agree that a mutually agreed-upon contract involves any force or coercion.

    Now, of course, you may not agree with this, but you should be aware that you are making certain assumptions about justice; assumptions that many other people, including myself, do not make. These assumptions are the flaw in Hellie's argument, and why none of us should assume that all people have the same objective conception of justice.

  28. The poster who cited Krugman seriously mischaracterizes the idea of "starving the beast" I've spent a fair amount of time in conservative/libertarian circles, although I am neither, and I've seen "starve the beast" used to mean this: cut taxes, and use the reduction in government revenue as a justification for cutting government spending.

    Conservatives and libertarians generally believe that we'd all be better off if the government were smaller. But cutting spending on any government programs whatsoever is usually extremely difficult. This isn't because all government programs serve the cause of justice: it's because spending on all government programs is in *somebody's* interest, and they'll fight like hell to keep the money flowing. This is true whether the beneficiaries are deserving or not, and whether or not the program achieves the goals it was supposed to achieve. Consequently, even under Republican-controlled Presidents and Congresses, government spending balloons.

    In comes "starve the beast". Tax cuts are easier to sell than spending cuts, so the conservative/libertarian hope is that diminished revenue will make diminished spending easier to sell. This may be somewhat disingenuous, but it is nonetheless very different from cutting government spending, then saying "We have extra money, so we can afford tax cuts for the rich."

    The sense in which it's disingenuous, though, is exactly the same way the selling of gay rights has been disingenuous. Although our ultimate goal is total social and legal acceptance, the tactics used to achieve this have been a kind of bait-and-switch. People started by making more reasonable-sounding cases like "I think homosexual sex should be legal", pleading for "tolerance", and opposing hate-inspired violence. The point wasn't merely to get gay sex legalized: the point was that the normalization of homosexuality would make it easier to push for more radical goals like gay marriage. And a good thing, too!

  29. Michta, I realize that I am assuming that an employer forces her employees to labor without compensation. But it should be obvious that the capitalist relies on the desperation of the worker to get her to accept employment terms that she would otherwise reject. The worker can either starve, resign herself to being exploited, or try to become an exploiter herself. To rule out the case where she is a lazy bookworm like me who, thus, deserves to be exploited, let's assume that she tries to become a captain of industry but just can't seem to cut the mustard. She must, then, choose between options 1 and 2. Knowing her predicament, a would be employer can easily get her to agree to spend a significant portion of her day generating wealth that she herself will not enjoy. Her fear causes her to part with something- time- on which her employer has no claim. The latter is, thus, no diferent than a mugger. That is to say, unless you believe that a worker isn't forced to accept her employer's terms because, after all, she could try her luck as a vagabond, you must concede that her time is stolen.

  30. I concede no such thing. I don't want to turn this into a debate over Marx's theory of exploitation, because all it should be about is the mutually exclusive assumptions each of us makes regarding justice. But I will bite anyway, just to prove a point.

    Were a libertarian to posit the three choices a worker faces, the three choices would be as follows: starve, engage in mutually beneficial voluntary relations with others, or force his own will on others. Under a libertarian theory of justice, option three is unjust. If we are to live, we must voluntarily interact with others: sometimes through charity and sometimes through trade.

    In all trades that are not entirely on the margin; that is, trades in which each party gives up just enough to make it worth getting something in return, there is an element of surplus. This is true with regard to a firm's profits, but it is also true with regard to consumer surplus. For example, if I purchase an apple for a market price of $0.50 but I would have been willing to purchase the same apple for $1.00, I gain a consumer surplus of $0.50. Do you consider this consumer surplus to be exploitive as well?

    Another fatal flaw for Marx's theory of exploitation, as well as the labor theory of value on which it relies, is that both theories ignore the value created by the entrepreneur. The entrepreneur forgoes current consumption and takes a risk in the hope that in the future, his investment will pay-off. Do workers also take this risk? Are workers willing to wait, perhaps decades, until the firm makes a profit before they get paid? Are workers willing to risk a large portion of what they have legitimately earned previously in the hope that they will make a sufficient return on their investment?

    Besides a willingness to take risks, knowledge also plays a crucial role. Do the workers know how to develop and follow through with a business plan? Do the workers have extensive knowledge of the industry? Do they know how to run a business? Do the workers know what consumers want? Can the workers identify a potential market niche that could be filled?

    And one more lesson from modern economic theory. (Speaking of which, and as an aside, I find this whole argument strange, considering that if you consult any mainstream economist, they will tell you that the labor theory of value was rejected over a century ago. So what at once seems so obvious to some is rejected by the very academic field relevant to the issue.) Surpluses attract competition. If I am making a profit off of my employees above and beyond the marginal value they produce, competitors have a strong incentive to enter the market and offer a higher wage to attract this employee away from me.

    So, no, I do not believe that an employee's time is stolen. But I must credit you with at least putting forward a cogent argument, even though I think it is wrong. Benjamin Hellie didn't even bother putting forth an argument. He simply assumed that everything left-wing is noble and just, while everything right-wing is vicious and evil. It's silly and unbecoming of someone of his caliber.

  31. Let's assume that Hellie's argument as he restates it is his real argument:

    A. right-wingers support things that are against the interests of the vast majority
    B. if the vast majority knew this, what right-wingers support could not exist
    C. therefore right-wingers are liars.

    This is a transparently invalid argument. Asserting untruths is not lying; lying is the *knowing* assertion of untruths with intent to deceive. So we must revise the argument somehow. What is the best way to do this, given what Helley says in his article? Let's look at the text. The passage in which he makes the inference runs:

    "People do not like injustice. The knowledge that injustice is being done to others offends their sense of morality; the knowledge that injustice is being done to them makes them angry and resentful. Both these emotions contribute to a desire to use the political system in order to counter injustice. So it is very helpful for the right wing to achieve its goal if the existence of injustice, and the unjust effects of the policies it endorses, can be concealed.

    "Providing this concealment is the role of right-wing political writers. Thus, a priori, given that injustice exists and that right-wing policies are unjust, you might expect the ample use of lies, misdirection, and sophistry from these guys."

    The critical line is "Providing this concealment is the role of right-wing political writers." This is blatant question-begging. To make it obvious, let me rewrite Helley's passage with another example (circa 1910 and substituting 'inferior to special relativity' for 'injustice'.):

    "Phycists do not like learning that trusted theories are inferior to other theories by every standard. Thus, it is very helpful for defenders of Newtonian mechanics to achieve their goals if the inferiority of their theory to special relativity can be concealed.

    Providing this concealment is the role of physicists who criticize special relativity. Thus, a priori, given that Newtonian mechanics is inferior to special relativity and that predictions based on Newtonian mechanics are false, you might expect the ample use of lies, misdirection, and sophistry from these guys."

    What's the problem? The problem is that denying the truth of a claim is not the same as concealing it. Concealing is an act of deliberate misrepresentation. Thus Helley's argument begs the question, because "Providing this concealment is the role of right-wing political writers" is one of his _premises_. If he had instead said, "Denying the truth of this fact is the role of right-wing political writers", it would be clear the inference did not follow. Right-wing political writers might offer arguments that were not based on deliberate misrepresentation of the facts.

    I think, however, that something else is going on. Look at the last paragraph of Helley's article:

    ". . .these arguments rely on the empirical claims that there is injustice, and that right-wing policies make it worse. There's plenty of evidence that this is so, of course. No one's forcing anyone to accept this evidence; but it's your bank account, your inadequate health care, your kids, your community that feels it every time you turn a blind eye."

    People who disagree with Helley's political views aren't honestly mistaken: they're "turn[ing] a blind eye" to injustice. Consequently, I think Helley's claim regarding blind eyes can be paraphrased as:

    D The evidence that right-wing policies are unjust is so compelling that there is no reasonable case that they are just.

    Once you add D to the rest of Helley's arguments, the inference becomes much better. If the evidence for Helley's views is so compelling that no one can reasonably disagree, then the only way to make disagreement sound reasonable could easily be deliberate misrepresentation of the facts. If the only good tool available to right-wing political writers is deliberate misrepresentation, then deliberate misrepresentation is what you should expect.

    The problem is that D is false. Political issues (especially those that impinge on economic policy) are fantastically complicated. It is rare to find consensus among economists as to the effect a given policy will (or did) have; nor has any school of economists acquired the kind of predictive power that gives us the ability to trust their judgments unhesitatingly the way we do with physicists. And sometimes groups of economists who should not be dismissed a priori find analyses that support right-wing policies. There is simply too much controversy for disagreement to be entirely unreasonable.

    If Heller is supporting D (and I think he is) he is contributing to a widespread problem in political discourse today: the assumption that opposing viewpoints aren't even worthy of consideration. The result is millions of people who mistakenly believe themselves to be well-informed, for, as Mill said, "He who knows only his own side of the case, knows little of that."

  32. To hell with the abstraction.
    Underfunded pension funds. Tightening bankuptcy laws for individuals. Of course the rich have to be protected, because the employ the poor. But poor people have only themselves to worry about so they are expendible, as individuals, but of course not as aggregate. And the equation of George Will and David Corn is amusing. Will's contradictory statements- depending on what the rightwing policy momentum is as any given moment- are well documented (to say the least.) Corn does not have that problem.
    These arguments are useless unless you can refer to and justify policy decisions. Read the link to Delong my dear brother posted above then come back to me with your damn abstractions.
    "All things being equal…"
    "Yes but this is not methematics this is politics,
    and all things are NOT equal."
    "Oh"

  33. Juan, "to hell with abstractions" dramatically understates the complexity of the issues involved. Suppose I were to claim: "The Left clearly wants to make sure public education for poor kids is crap". This is false; suppose that you responded with an argument to demonstrate its falsity. Suppose that in response, I said,

    "To hell with abstractions. Opposing any efforts whatsoever that would make it easier for poor parents to remove children from failing public schools. Supporting strong teacher's unions that allow the best teachers to avoid ever dealing with disadvantaged children."

    Is the point clear?

    This kind of attitude stifles debate about the real merits of public policy.

  34. Elliott Reed and others: Aren't you taking Hellie's post a little too seriously? You're treating it as it were intended to be a serious and rational argument. I see no evidence of that. It was obviously nothing more than a partisan rant intended to 1) entertain other true believers, and 2) confirm their prejudices against reading anyone with whom they disagree. If it had been a serious argument, Hellie would have defined his terms (lots of contradictory varieties of "right-wing" out there), provided support for his factual assertions, and avoided the self-serving use of highly-contestable terms such as "justice" and "injustice."

    Besides, the conclusion — "Everyone who disagrees with me must be a liar" — is obviously not conducive to future learning and enlightenment, unless one already possesses God's omniscience. Both the left-wing and the right-wing could learn a lot from each other, but not if they make excuses for putting on ideological blinders.

  35. Stuart, there's a simple reason I take this kind of thing seriously: it allows people to rationalize demonization, hate, and refusal to engage in serious discussions of issues. It encourages people to write off policy proposals offered by the opposition without even considering them. If they have a monopoly on the truth and everyone who disagrees is a liar, why should they even think about alternative perspectives?

    It is important to clearly demonstrate the fallacies in such arguments. Even if Hellie's post is really just a partisan rant, he is clearly trying to pretend it is a serious argument. This allows him and those who read him not only to be narrow-minded, but to do so self-righteously. Sadly, this kind of attitude – and attempts to rationalize it – can be found across the political spectrum.

  36. Abstraction is an abstraction FROM something. Read the last sentence not just the first.
    If rationalism = knowing how to count.
    Empiricism = knowing how to read.

  37. The last sentence is a straw man. I don't even know what it means to claim that "all other things are equal" on this issue. Does it mean that left-wing and right-wing policies are equally true? That both are equally well-supported by the evidence? That all think tanks and political writers are equally honest and trustworthy? I assert none of these things. I am making a much weaker claim: the case for right-wing policies is not SO bad that no reasonable person could believe them; thus we are not justified in taking political affiliation as a reliable indicator of honesty.

  38. Correction: That should be "That left-wing and right-wing *beliefs* are equally true?"

  39. Micha (sorry for misspelling your name), You simply ignore the point of my analogy: a worker is in no position to engage in "voluntary relations" with a capitalist. Her fear of privation drives her to give away something to which she would hold on were that fear lifted. Here is where Hellie's charge begins to make sense: it is the best explanation for the libertarian's unwillingness to acknowledge something that others find obvious. (I myself easily manage to convince about 150 students every semester that capitalism entails the theft of workers' time.)

    As far as patience, courage, and knowledge are concerned, you need to realize that not all workers are lazy bookworms like me. They do not lack these virtues, but CAPITAL. Moreover, even lazy bookworms are entitled to their time. Mugging me would be immoral even if I were so ignorant or foolish as to take a shortcut through a dark alley without being willing to Rambo muggers.

  40. I didn't ignore the point of your analogy; I just disagree with it. Again, I ask, do consumers exploit producers when they gain consumer surplus from the transaction?

    I am unwilling to acknowledge something that you find obvious, just as you are unwilling to acknowledge something that I find obvious. But that is entirely the reason why Hellie's "argument" is so silly. We clearly do not find our opponent's claims obvious. These claims require argumentation, not simply assertion.

    And as to your last claim, no, workers do not merely lack capital. Workers want to get paid for their labor. No workers that I know of are willing to wait decades to get paid, nor are they willing to wait until the company shows a profit.

    Marxism is not obvious to me, just as libertarianism is not obvious to you. As Elliot has said so eloquently before me, these simple-minded assumptions poison political discourse.

  41. "Workers want to get paid for their labor"
    Well no. Actually they have no choice.
    I have no choice.

  42. Micha, Inductive logic dictates that you should not reject the conclusion of an analogical argument without pointing up a significant difference between the cases, that is, showing that the analogy does not hold. So I ask you, what is the morally significant difference between mugging someone and exploiting a worker's labor? In both cases, you have a person being forced to do something because of her unwillingness to endure horrible consequences. Both the mugger and the capitalist rely on this fact of human nature: persons tend to choose the lesser of two evils.

    Off the top of my head, I would say that the relationship between consumers and producers does not involve exploitation in the Marxist sense, since no force appears to be involved. But even if I am wrong here, so what; I can just condemn exploitative consumers to be consistent.

    As Htes notes, a worker may be just as willing to delay gratification as a capitalist. But, without a significant amount of money in the bank, he/she is simply not in the position of being able to manifest that virtue. I would like a libertarian to look me in the eye and tell me that the typical American worker, let alone one in a third world country, is in a position to succeed in business. I would then be certain that Hellie's thesis is true.

  43. Htes backwards is…

    Change the beat.
    Since I like wasting my boss's time here:
    I just spent most of my day-at work- removing and installing celotex ceiling tiles, those 5/8" thick pieces of vaguely decorative foam used in modern corporate construction. They're cheap to make and install and they make it easy to run -and rerun- electricity, plumbing and more recently data lines. They are economically logical and nothing else. THEY SUCK. You don't want them in your Libertarian home, son. If you're rich you don't even want sheetrock, you want plaster. Libertarians "believe in" McDonald's, but they don't eat there. Fuck your abstraction. Describe and defend the actions of this government, not your ideal government, in terms of neutral economic logic. Donald Luskin, Where are you?

  44. "So I ask you, what is the morally significant difference between mugging someone and exploiting a worker's labor?"

    Did the person being mugged agree to be mugged? Do the laborer agree to work for his employer?

    What is the morally significant difference between mugging someone and exploiting a seller by enjoying consumer surplus?

    "In both cases, you have a person being forced to do something because of her unwillingness to endure horrible consequences."

    Who is doing the forcing in each case? In the case of mugging, the source of the coercion is clear: the mugger is doing the forcing. But in the case of employment, no one is forcing this person to work for this employer. He could find a different employer offering a better deal, he could ask for charity, he could start his own business, he could join with other workers and pool together resources to start a workers collective, and so on. Nothing is forcing this worker to work for a particular employer.

    "Off the top of my head, I would say that the relationship between consumers and producers does not involve exploitation in the Marxist sense, since no force appears to be involved."

    And no force appears to be involved in the employee/employer relationship. The employee is trading his labor for the employer's wages. Where is the element of force?

    "But even if I am wrong here, so what; I can just condemn exploitative consumers to be consistent."

    Okay, then I expect Marxists to start walking the walk. When Marxists begin to pay sellers the full value of the goods they purchase, without exploiting the consumer surplus for themselves, then they might look a bit more consistent.

  45. I can't believe I'm getting involved in the "labor theory of value" argument. But I think some things need to be clarified.

    I will first note some factual problems with the argument. In today's capitalist system, a worker's choices are not limited to "take a job with Employer X" and "starve". There are lots of other alternatives: "look for a job with Employers Y or Z", "beg on the street", "go to homeless shelters and soup kitchens", "plead for help from her family", or "apply for government aid". These options aren't pleasant, but they're not the same thing as starving to death.

    But I think it may be more enlightening to give the Marxists as many factual assumptions as they want. So, quoting robert allen:

    "a worker is in no position to engage in "voluntary relations" with a capitalist. Her fear of privation drives her to give away something to which she would hold on were that fear lifted."

    The questionable part of this assertion is the phrase "were that fear lifted." This means that capitalism is being compared to some other hypothetical situation. Hence the question arises: what is that situation? Can the Marxists please describe the situation capitalism is being compared with?

    Please be specific. If you want to say, as I suspect you do, "one in which the means of production are controlled by the workers", please describe exactly in what that control consists. Do the workers vote about what to do with the means of production? How do they distribute the goods produced?

  46. Yoo…Hoo! Anybody home!?
    Now someone's actually trying to describe present conditions. So, human behavior tends toward capitalism… And conservatives are merely being [sorry, merely are being] realistic.
    Iunnerstannow.

    But, hey, I thought we were talking logic?
    Or is what exists Just because it exists. And so what doesns't exist is Unjust because it doesn't?
    That's hard core dude.

    "When Marxists begin to pay sellers the full value of the goods they purchase, without exploiting the consumer surplus for themselves, then they might look a bit more consistent."
    Oh Meesha, you're such a cynic.
    It's…
    sexy.

    The pleasure has been ours,
    Juan and Johannes Schmuck.
    Diego Velazquez
    Htes Muabnede,
    and
    April Glaspie

  47. Eliot and Micha:

    I agree that a worker is not forced to work for a specific employer. Unlike a slave, she may seek a different situation, as Dickens would say. But, of course, no matter where she winds up the vast amount of what she produces must be turned over to someone else. Thus, some Marxists concede that capitalists themselves are not exerting the force in question, but the market economy of which they are in control. But if I control something that forces others into an undesirable situation, then I am also responsible for their predicament.

    The worker does agree to work for her employer, but under duress; just as the mugging victim agrees to hand over his wallet out of fear.

    When people start arguing that workers are not forced to work for capitalists because, after all, there are soup kitchens, welfare agencies, and compassionate family members, Hellie's thesis begins to make sense. Hey, I could take my chances with a mugger too.

    The alternative is almost as Eliot describes it: workers vote on what is to be produced with each worker receiving a living wage. A "private" economy producing "luxuries" would also be allowed to flourish sans exploitation. As I tell my students, if you are big on having free time, a Marxist economy is just the thing for you. On the other hand, if you are willing and able to exploit others, then you would not like living under Communism. When the matter is put to them in this way, suprisingly few object to Marxism.

  48. "But, of course, no matter where she winds up the vast amount of what she produces must be turned over to someone else."

    False. Support this statement.

    "Thus, some Marxists concede that capitalists themselves are not exerting the force in question, but the market economy of which they are in control. But if I control something that forces others into an undesirable situation, then I am also responsible for their predicament."

    Okay, great. And who controls the market? No one. Brilliant analysis. If this is indicative of contemporary Marxist "thought," no wonder communism has failed repeatedly.

    "The worker does agree to work for her employer, but under duress; just as the mugging victim agrees to hand over his wallet out of fear."

    Let's try your "logic" a bit differently. The employer does agree to pay wages to her employees, but under duress. The only way the employer can survive is by hiring employees. Therefore, according to your "logic", the employee is forcing the employer to hire him.

    Sounds insane, doesn't it? Just as insane as claiming that employees are forced to work for their employers.

    "workers vote on what is to be produced with each worker receiving a living wage."

    And what is stopping these workers from doing this now, hmm? Do you have any idea how much money unions have at their disposal? Why don't they risk some of their collective money and start their own worker's co-op?

    No, they don't want to earn their wealth honestly, like a capitalists do. They would rather take the easy route: give in to their greed and steal wealth from those who earned it.

    "As I tell my students, if you are big on having free time, a Marxist economy is just the thing for you."

    If you are big on not starving to death, a capitalist economy is nice as well.

    "On the other hand, if you are willing and able to exploit others, then you would not like living under Communism. When the matter is put to them in this way, suprisingly few object to Marxism."

    Wow. I bet you think of yourself as extraordinarily profound. Let's see here, I can either have lots of free time, or exploit others – which one should I choose? I guess I'll choose Marxism! Sounds to me like the "choice" offered by Mr. Hellie.

    Either your students are complete idiots or you are not being entirely honest about their responses to your query. If one of my professors ever tried to pull this shit in class, I'd call him on it and show him to be the buffoon that he is.

  49. Micha, Is that what you do when you are losing an argument- resort to name-calling and snideness? I'm outta here.

Designed with WordPress