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    The McMaster Department of Philosophy has now put together the following notice commemorating Barry: Barry Allen: A Philosophical Life Barry…

I’m really not sure if this is a joke

I am hoping it is.  An excerpt:

Inverting the way we commonly talk and think about domestication, the book will explore how grasses, grains, various animals such as wolves, cows, cats, goats, and microbes, as well as technologies have conspired to domesticate human beings for their own ends. Throughout North America and other parts of the world, for example, grass cultivated humans to be beings that love lawns and large grassy areas for their sports so that humans would spread grass all about the world, thereby getting itself replicated. Likewise, cows, in a sinister plot against other herd animals, cultivated humans to have a particular love of beef so that they might get replicated and spread across the globe, cornering the market on prime pieces of grazing land.

(Thanks to a pseudonymous reader for sending me to this, shall we say, unusual blog.)

UPDATE:  Mohan Matthen, the philosopher of mind and biology at the University of Toronto writes:

It's a wacky idea, but not without a sane and sober (and brilliant) precedent.

Grasses coevolved with humans: certain grasses became nutritious so humans would consume them and excrete their seeds all over so that the grasses themselves prospered. (Jared Diamond discusses this case in Guns, Germs, and Steel. He also observes that natural selection acts oppositely on fruits and seeds: fruits evolve to be good-tasting to attract animals to eat them; seeds within the fruits evolve to be hard or bitter or even poisonous so that they are not chewed up, but are rather spat out or excreted whole, to reproduce.) Fruits coevolved with old world monkeys: the fruit developed colour so that they are easily visible to these monkeys; the monkeys developed colour vision so they could spot the fruit. The monkeys found a source of nutrition; the plants that grew the fruit got propagated wherever the monkeys went. (J. D. Mollon has developed the co-evolution thesis for colour vision.) 

Of course, in the above cases, there is natural variation on both sides, from which the mutual benefit can evolve. Some plants of a species have attributes that make them apt to be taken up by humans in a way that aids their reproduction; others have these attributes in lesser measure. Similarly, among humans there are some who are prone to eat the grass and fruit with such attributes and others who do not. The former of each kind prosper. That's co-evolution, and if it can be described as the domestication of plants, then the opposite description is equally apt. But I didn't see much about co-evolution in the blog that you linked.

ANOTHER UPDATE:  So it's definitely not a joke.  Professor Levi has offered a useful clarification of what he calls his "hyperbole" from the original posting, and confirms that he did, indeed, have in mind the co-evolution hypothesis point noted by Professor Matthen.  He also offers, though, the following somewhat puzzling further explanation for how the co-evolution point fits with his interests in the Continental traditions in philosophy:

In what context does such a project make sense? Well, in the context of continental theory where my work is primarily situated. What might motivate such a project within the framework of continental theory? Well, the fact that most continental theorists argue that humans in some way or another construct reality. Among the continentals we have the Kantians that argue that the mind structures reality, the phenomenologists that argue that intentionality structures reality, the linguistic and semiotic idealists that argue that language and signs construct reality, those that argue that power and discourse constructs reality, and the hermeneuts that talk about how history constructs reality. Everywhere we have continentalists arguing, in a manner that repeats the story of Adam in the Garden of Eden, that humans are sovereigns that construct reality.

My little project, which perhaps suffers from hyperbole (but how else do you draw attention to an important point), merely tries to draw attention to the role played by nonhumans in the development and construction of humans and their societies.

It's unclear, though, how any causal hypothesis about the structure of the world–whether physical or biological–could be responsive (or even relevant) to a philosophical thesis about the human contribution to the conceptual structuring of our understanding of the world (of which the hypothesis about co-evolution is but one of many examples).   I have invited Professor Bryant to comment further, and welcome input from other interested readers.

 

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14 responses to “I’m really not sure if this is a joke”

  1. Brian,

    I'm not sure I understand your question or concern in your final paragraph. The point is not to deny that humans conceptually (linguistically, etc) structure the world in particular ways, to draw attention to the role played by other factors in how human societies come to be structured. Take the example of food production largely organized around rice in Asian countries as analyzed by the historian Braudel in the first volume of Capitalism & Civilization. As a source of food, the advantages of rice are largely two-fold: 1) Compared to grains it is a reliable crop, and 2) you get two to three harvests of rice a year. However, rice is also extremely labor intensive to produce. Not only are hours spent each and every day both planting and harvesting the rice, but in order for rice production to be adequate and significant, collective effort is required. Rice thus ends up organizing a society in a particular way by "demanding" certain forms of collective farming that both tie people to the land (hunting and gathering begins to disappear) and which leads to a certain form of social stratification (I can't go into all the details of this here). Here you have a nonhuman entity, rice, playing a significant role in the form that social relations take… Something that can't, I would argue, be accounted for or understood in terms of how human concepts, language, or signs "structure reality".

    I'm trying to draw attention to these sorts of phenomena, which, I believe, are rather underanalyzed in Continental social and political theory. My aim is not to argue role played by human concepts, intentions, signs, and so on, but to direct attention to these other factors.

  2. "It's unclear, though, how any causal hypothesis about the structure of the world–whether physical or biological–could be responsive (or even relevant) to a philosophical thesis about the human contribution to the conceptual structuring of our understanding of the world (of which the hypothesis about co-evolution is but one of many examples)."

    It seems to me that Bryant's project is based on the very thesis (championed by Bruno Latour and other proponents of actor-network theory) that such a distinction between natural and social worlds or explanations is an artificial one. Bryant's stance goes hand-in-hand with abandoning a correspondence theory of truth and accepting that the world is thoroughly heterogeneous and meaning or explanations arise out of chains of reference that are mediated by both human and nonhuman elements.

    Bryant's hyperbolic trope in effect is a clever reversal of the anthropocentric assumption that underlies the society/nature dualism, and this reverse asymmetry helps to highlight the mechanisms of what Bryant called "bilateral determination," namely that all manner of human and nonhuman actors take part in structuring reality (as well as our scientific, philosophical, sociological etc. accounts of reality).

  3. The question you raise at the end is the loose end by which Bryant's work, and that of his compatriots, unravels. As PE points out, they out of principle deny any meaningful distinction between talk about the causal structure of the material world and talk about the conceptual structure of our knowledge about that world, thereby undercutting the possibility of epistemologically justifying their metaphysical claims (and, for that matter, shirking the notion that linguistic communication is a trade of meaningful contents). Pete Wolfendale has provided a devastating critique of their approach here, amongst other places: http://deontologistics.wordpress.com/2010/07/15/response-to-levi-part-3/. I'm especially thinking of the bit of self-quotation about 9 paragraphs from the bottom.) While I do think the coevolution hypothesis is rather compelling, Bryant's metaphysical interpretation is too methodologically sloppy.

  4. Hi Reid,

    From a psychoanalytic point of view, your constant obsession with sloppiness and cleanliness is absolutely fascinating. That aside, I've never suggested that there's no distinction between causal structures and conceptual structures. Nor have I ever denied that discourse and practice is governed by norms, though I'm happy to leave the analysis of such things to others like Brandom. The problem I have with work like Wolfendale's is that it fails to sufficiently situate itself in a naturalistic content. This Dennett article gives a fair sense of my own thoughts on the matter:

    http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/papers/Brandom.pdf

  5. Let's just take the case of the "Kantian view," loosely speaking, according to which all our experience is made possible by categories imposed by the human mind. If that thesis is correct, then it applies to Braudel's hypothesis about the role of rice in human societies, to Newtonian mechanis, and to any hypothesis about co-evolution. You say that, "The point is not to deny that humans conceptually (linguistically, etc) structure the world in particular ways, [but] to draw attention to the role played by other factors in how human societies come to be structured." (I've inserted what I think was a missing 'but' in the sentence, but if this changes the meaning in a way not intended, you can correct me.) But this reads as a non-sequitur: it is not part of the Kantian view to deny that a vast array of factors causally influence the structure of human societies. The Kantian view claims, only, that any scientific hypothesis about the causal forces operative in the social world will, itself, depends on evidence (experiences) that are themselves structured in accordance with categories the mind imposes.

    In sum, I don't see what the co-evolution hypothesis, or any other hypothesis about the factors that structure society, has to do with the Kantian themes in post-Kantian Continental traditions in philosophy.

  6. Bruno Latour says somewhere about how we have a thousand myths for how subjects construct objects but none for how objects construct subjects. Levi might be trying to balance that out – a most worthwhile task.

    Certainly it is possible to be a Kantian and, for instance, accept Braudel's analysis of rice in Asia but that's hardly the point. The point is that Kant inspired three centuries of almost total neglect of the ways in which objects structure subjects in favour of studying how subjects construct objects. They weren't wrong to find this interesting and they weren't wrong insofar as the structuring effects of mind, discourse, consciousness, etc. are ineradicable but isn't it possible to have a look at the other side of the coin for once?

    If Kantianism doesn't absolutely preclude the study of how objects construct subjects one can hardly deny with a straight face that the vast majority of work in this tradition has been on the contrary relationship – can one?!

    Perhaps we can think of it like 'Affirmative Action for Objects' – the study of subjectivity has been so privileged for so long that perhaps an element of positive discrimination in favour of objectivity (in the ontological rather than the epistemological sense) can be justified even if the results to date are rather inchoate and less developed than their stronger, better fed cousins.

  7. I'm not sure that psychoanalyzing the opponent's intentions is really that good of a way to start any conversation, especially when its intention is to dismiss rather than confront the critic's points.

  8. I'm going to insist that subsequent comments be signed, so that we stay on track. Levi Bryant and I are clearly identified, and since we are having a (mostly) substantive philosophical discussion, there is no reason not to post under actual names.

    CircSqu's (hereafter "CS") comments are quite puzzling, and I'm not sure whether they are representative of Levi's position or not. CS says:

    "The point is that Kant inspired three centuries of almost total neglect of the ways in which objects structure subjects in favour of studying how subjects construct objects."

    I'm not quite sure what this means. Obviously Kant did not cause Braudel, or biologists, or anyone else for that matter to "neglect…the ways in which objects structure subjects" (not an illuminating way of puting it, I think, though one that seems to be designed to obscure the non-sequitur to which I called attention above). But even within the Continental traditions, it is not the case that there has been this neglect. Marx and Foucault, to take the two obvious examples within the post-Kantian Continental traditions, have quite a lot to say about how subjects are structured by forces well beyond them. Of course, they also do not accept the conception of philosophy characteristics of Kant's critical turn.

    CS asks: "isn't it possible to have a look at the other side of the coin for once?" Putting the misconceived "for once" to one side, this just repeats the earlier non-sequitur: there is no theoretical coin that has, on one side, the Kantian thesis that the human mind structures experience and on the other the thesis that social, biological, and other forces causally shape human beings. The two theses are not in competition. They concern different topics. I do hope this entire discussion isn't based on such a simple confusion brought on by metaphors about "subject" and "object"!

    Perhaps the real question is what philosophers have to contribute to our understanding of how humans are shaped by nature, by economics, and by forces beyond them. The examples of Marx and Foucault suggest quite a lot, but that, of course, is because their conception of philosophical practice is one that allies it with, or models it on, the empirical sciences–or at least, in Foucault's case, empirical facts of various kinds. One thing they do not do, however, is armchair make-it-up-as-you-go ontology, which is an amusing kind of intellectual masturbation, but whose philosophical history isn't very edifying.

    Again, I do not want to ascribe CS's position to Bryant: I am uncertain whether this same metaphorical confusion is playing any role in his point.

  9. Cleanliness is a virtue, whether my motives for favoring it be pathological or not.

  10. Reid,

    Willful misreading and berating someone for something they don't disagree with but already believe to be largely completed aren't virtues. Anonym, I have a long history with that particular person. I'm not *beginning* a discussion by psychoanalyzing them. In Nietzschean terms this person has a rather unattractive will to power that, in terms of the Genealogy of Morals falls into the priestly class… Ironically as this commentator actually tried to start an institute for schizoanalysis.

    BL COMMENT: I don't see the misreading, but be that as it may, let's save the armchair psychology for another time and stay focused on the substance. Thanks.

  11. Brian,

    Yes, I think you're right about the Kantian argument. I basically endorse Bhaskar's arguments in his earlier works in support of transcendental realism, arguing that if our practice is to be intelligible we must begin with the mind-independence of objects as a transcendental condition for the possibility of scientific *practice*. I develop these arguments in my forthcoming _Democracy of Objects_ so I won't repeat them here, though I do outline them in the sidebar of my blog. Given those arguments, the argument you're repeating (which I don't take you to endorse, being a fellow realist), lose a lot of their force.

    BL COMMENT: I would agree that a good transcendental argument for realism would be a response to the Kantian position (I don't there there are any such arguments, certainly not Bhaskar's, but we can put that to one side). But my worry was different: namely, I didn't see how examining how the world influences human subjects was in any way a "response to" or an "antidote to" the Kantian turn in philosophy. That still seems to me a non-sequitur, trading on a metaphor. I don't take it you're agreeing with me about that!

  12. I have probably missed the point of some of the contributions to this thread, but may I interject a word about evolution-based teleology.

    In action-talk, 'X did A' means more than that X was causally influential with respect to A. It implies something about the role played by X's cognitive and conative states with respect to A.

    Philosophers such as Ernest Nagel, Larry Wright, and Ruth Millikan (among many others) have argued that it is permissible to use action-related terminology — words like 'function' and 'goal' — in evolutionary contexts provided that certain conditions are met. Loosely speaking, they permit the use of these concepts in contexts where evolutionary advantage plays a role.

    Given this extension of action-based concepts, what would it mean to say: "cows . . . cultivated humans to have a particular love of beef so that they might get replicated and spread across the globe"? Minimally, it ought to imply something like that there was variation among cows (or among cows and deer) with respect to tastiness, and that the tastier varieties got an evolutionary advantage because humans herded and cultivated them so that they could be killed for meat. As far as I know, this is false.

    What appears to be true is that there was variation among cows (or cows and deer) with respect to their capacity for domestication. There was also variation among humans with respect to their capacity to domesticate animals and to benefit from them (for instance by being able to digest milk and cook meat). Consequently, cows became more populous and humans became herders. It was domestication and cow-herding that co-evolved on this story, not tasty meat and meat-eating.

    There are two problems that I have with Levi's story. The first is purely empirical. He and I appear to disagree about the facts: he seems to accept the second story; I do not. He may be right about this.

    The second is that he seems not to differentiate the two scenarios. He (and some other contributors to this thread) seem to allow that even on my story — the second one offered above — cows shaped humans to eat beef. Brian's point is that a historical story about co-evolution doesn't explain the synchronic structure of human cognitive activities. My point is that the historical story is of the wrong type to support the claim about cows, even if the latter is understood historically. For it does not show that cows with tasty flesh had an evolutionary advantage.

  13. You either admit that "there must be at least some part of epistemology, sufficient to define metaphysics, that is independent of metaphysics", and that therefore "we must at least be able to legitimately discuss knowledge in non-metaphysical terms", or deny it, as you have consistently done. Pete has argued, and I agree with him, that this denial compromises "the possibility of adequately circumscribing metaphysics, and thus the possibility of genuine explicit metaphysical debate", in making one's definition of what metaphysics is depend upon commitment to particular metaphysical positions about the nature of knowledge, meaning, and so on. I am unaware of either a convincing challenge to this inference within your responses to him, or an admission on your part that epistemology must be methodologically prior to metaphysics, and so as far as I'm concerned your metaphysics is fundamentally compromised. That isn't to say I don't think you're doing interesting work worthy of consideration, but that I think your disagreement with Pete on these issues is needless, and the consequences you've drawn from it are only detrimental to your work as a whole.

    I'm sure you believe you've offered strong arguments against Pete on these matters. As far as I'm concerned, I either haven't seen them, or don't find them as strong as you do. I understand you don't feel obliged to continue this argument. I believe you haven't yet adequately challenged Pete's position and defended your own, and I will continue to say as much, although I don't think its fair to characterize me as having berated you on the matter, given the relative radio silence on my part. In any case, I don't see the need to make this personal. I haven't done so, and I will thank you to stop doing so.

  14. Levi Bryant: "I basically endorse Bhaskar's arguments in his earlier works in support of transcendental realism, arguing that if our practice is to be intelligible we must begin with the mind-independence of objects as a transcendental condition for the possibility of scientific *practice*"

    BL: "I would agree that a good transcendental argument for realism would be a response to the Kantian position (I don't there there are any such arguments, certainly not Bhaskar's, but we can put that to one side)."

    I'm just a student, so maybe things have changed significantly among the vanguard since I last looked into this, but so far as I'm aware it's actually impossible to advance a transcendental argument for realism. The work of Stern, Cassam, Bruekner, and of course Barry Stroud have all pretty much shown why this is the case, so there's no real reason to go into detail here.

    One might advance a version of an indispensability argument akin to the Quine-Putnam argument for mathematical objects, but then there's still the problems of explanatory deficits (simply because something is indispensable doesn't explain why it is so), and relativity of indispensability itself (something is indispensable relative to a given practice, but that doesn't secure the necessity of the practice, or the legitimacy of a given commitment).

    I don't know Bhaskar's work, so maybe he has a cogent response. Could someone enlighten me? At present, and form my perspective, the very idea of a transcendental argument seems to be a non-starter.

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