Leiter Reports: A Philosophy Blog

News and views about philosophy, the academic profession, academic freedom, intellectual culture, and other topics. The world’s most popular philosophy blog, since 2003.

  1. Charles Bakker's avatar

    I came across this article today. https://gizmodo.com/pentagon-investigators-say-overreliance-on-palantir-ai-tech-contributed-to-u-s-strike-that-killed-123-iranian-children-2000814477 Apparently, the (irresponsible) use of AI was partly to blame for the American…

  2. Luis Marxuach's avatar
  3. Scott's avatar
  4. Jasper Wong's avatar
  5. Eric Winsberg's avatar
  6. Mark's avatar
  7. eric winsberg's avatar

“Peripheral Speech”, Gender, and Blog Participation (Kukla)

Recently, Cassie Herbert (one of my grad students at
Georgetown) and I have been thinking and writing about what we have dubbed
peripheral speech. Peripheral speech is a kind of speech within expert
communities – that is, any communities held together by shared expertise
combined with a shared social identity. 
These could be professional communities (tort lawyers, physicists,
philosophers, philosophers of race, experimental philosophers…) or avocational
communities (trekkies, antique car restoration fanatics…). Peripheral
speech is not institutionally sanctioned expert speech such as giving colloquia,
teaching, or publishing an article, nor is it just expertise-irrelevant
chit-chat. It’s speech that draws on the shared expertise and social identity
of the community but in an informal way, around the margins of official expert
speech. It is often but not always playful. It can include blogging,
professional gossip, facebook interactions, and professional ‘insider’ jokes,
for instance. (One of our favorite examples is the ongoing circulation of the
‘Philosophers' Proofs that P’.) There is no crisp line between peripheral and regular expert
speech, of course, and while peripheral speech is often pleasurable it is not
inherently bad or good; it can have powerful positive and negative effects, we
argue.

Cassie’s and my main philosophical interest here is in the pragmatics of peripheral speech, and in
particular in how the performative force of peripheral speech acts can serve to
include and exclude expert community members, as well as to solidify,
constitute, and negotiate community norms. 

Pragmatics aside, Cassie noticed something suggestive, a
couple of days ago, about who engages
in peripheral philosophy speech, at least on blogs. She got interested in the gender of the
commenters on this blog and the Newapps blog, both of which often take up
issues pertaining to the discipline as a whole. Here were her Totally Unscientific and Already Out of Date Yet
Suggestive findings. In the last eight
blog posts on this blog (as of a couple of days ago) that received at least 16 comments, 71% of the commenters
were identifiably male, 7% were identifiably female, 11% were by the post
author (rightly a separate category) and 18% were anonymous, pseudonymous, or
unidentifiable.  In the last eight corresponding posts
on Newapps, 55% were identifiably male, 11% female, 24% by the post author, and
11% were anonymous/pseudonymous/unidentifiable. 
She also found that on both blogs, later commenters were nine times less likely to refer explicitly back to female commenters as to male
commenters. It’s not clear that this means that individual
women got significantly less uptake, but it is an interesting snapshot of who
is in the conversation.

Again this is all wildly unscientific but it is suggestive of interesting trends concerning who engages in peripheral
speech in philosophy and who receives uptake for doing so. The relationship between this and issues of participation
in formal expert speech is worth exploring, I think. If peripheral speech really does play a central role in solidifying and negotiating expert communities and their boundaries, then who participates in it can have all sorts of interesting consequences.

(Bonus thought: Cassie could not collect meaningful numbers
for the Feminist Philosophers blog, because such a high percentage of the
bloggers and commenters there use pseudonyms. She pointed out that this in
itself has an interesting dynamic to it, since the identity of those folks is
somewhere between private and public. Many of us know who is speaking and whom we are addressing when we
comment on FPB, and many of us do not. It occurs to me that this in itself
raises questions about inclusion, exclusion, and the pragmatics of peripheral
speech; the use of semi-private pseudonyms can create a kind of insider
discourse and identity for those ‘in the know’ and can have an exclusionary effect on others.)

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

19 responses to ““Peripheral Speech”, Gender, and Blog Participation (Kukla)”

  1. I'm really interested in this bonus thought at the end. I've been reading philosophy blogs regularly for a few years now, and I first commented on FP I think precisely because I found the pseudonyms to be equalizing and less intimidating (and it remains the only blog I regularly comment on). In a sense I "knew" who people were from seeing their posts and comments regularly, but I had no idea if they were famous, a grad student, a full professor, or even, in the case of commenters at least, a professional philosopher–and that made it seem more open to me. I'm curious what others think.

  2. FWIW that was my experience at first too, and I think that was and is some of the intention of the bloggers. But over the years I suspect that an interesting dynamic has developed that no one intended, as the identities became semi-public. Just to be clear: I was not intending to criticize the fine bloggers at FPB. I am just interested in the complexity of online discourse and identity and its role in negotiations of community.

  3. Kathryn, I totally agree that there are all kinds of positive things that come out of this use of pseudonyms! In a lot of ways it's incredibly equalizing and liberating. (I'm not quite sure why, but I also think of FPB as being a place where commenters can be more playful, perhaps because of this.) But many of the pseudonyms don't function as 'normal' pseudonyms — they're internet handles for which many people in the discipline know who the author is. And it's not just that the identity is an open secret — in some cases it's treated as public information. But it's not public information that's accessible to everyone or even to all philosophers. And, as Rebecca noted, this makes the discourse that's going on wildly more complex in interesting ways.

  4. Yes, of course. And it strikes me that both dynamics could be at play. That is, it might in some respects be an easier sub-community to join in that pseudonyms lessen the sense of intimidation that comes with engaging in discourse with someone more advanced in the profession than oneself (which I suspect would be especially true of undergraduates, graduate students, and those interested in philosophy but not professionally) and it might be that for those who realize that the pseudonyms are only semi-private, if one is not in the know it could produce exclusionary effects (which I suspect would be especially true of philosophers who have spent enough time in the profession or online to realize this is the case, but who don't have any personal sorts of relationships IRL with those at FP).

  5. Yes, that seems exactly right (@11:10). Actually your comment triggered an odd memory. It's odd that it happened and equally odd that I forgot about it until now. I always post under my own name. At some point, I made a comment on that blog – I disagreed with another commenter, but not in a way that felt aggressive or anything from the inside. I thought we were just engaged in friendly debate. Someone wrote back and accused me of being aggressive and trying to throw my power around *in virtue of" using my own name rather than a pseudonym. I don't think of my name as having anything like the heft that was being attributed to it, regardless of my intentions, but anyhow this person felt that my use of my name was a power play. I found it very disconcerting (and promptly repressed the incident apparently).

    I am not sure what the moral of that story is except that again, the politics of peripheral speech are complex indeed and self-presentations online are rarely neutral.

  6. Many, many thanks for this. Philosophically, I'd be very interested to see what comes out of your (and Cassie's!) writing and thinking about peripheral speech since this, among other things, may have exciting connections to the semantics and pragmatics concerning derogatory language (e.g., slurs, general pejoratives, offensive implicatures. Or so I gather. More relevant here, though, are two questions.

    (1) Did Cassie calculate percentages on how likely a any given male's post was to be explicitly addressed by later posts as opposed to any given female's?

    (2) Did she collect any data about the likelihood of any given female's comment referencing an earlier male, as opposed to female, comment and compare this with any given male's likelihood?

    While the answers to these questions are probably 'no' and 'no', I'd be interested to know. My gut says that the answers to these questions might be less 'uncomfortable', but not much less. Discomfort might be mitigated, though, by such things as who's posting (I'm completely unsure). I assume that posts from 'established' philosophers (who, I think, tend to identify themselves by name on threads) are more likely to be explicitly cited by others than not (ceteris paribus, of course). I'm going to go ahead and take a shot in the dark that there are far more males considered to be among this established group than females (one of the facts to be rectified), and so probably more males among the group who regularly post–including on the threads from which the cited data was extracted–than their female counterparts (though I say this without having myself consulted those threads). What the upshot of all this would ultimately be, I haven't the slightest clue. Anyways, thanks again for posting!

    RK REPLY: For some freaky reason no matter what I do, I am not able to comment on this thread. I am completely baffled! So here is the reply I have tried to post like a million times….

    Argh, ACS, my long comment to you just got swallowed. Surely that shouldn't happen to the OP?

    Anyhow you are right that this is closely related to issues around derogatory speech, which is actually Cassie's research specialty.

    She did not collect that data – this was a back of the envelope kind of thing. But you're right that those would be interesting facts to know. (Any interest in collecting them for us??)

    Part of what interests me about all of this is the effects of such patterns on the philosophical community even when they are cut free from any direct sexism whether implicit or explicit. Maybe women are getting their fair share of uptake and maybe they aren't – I am not sure. But for whatever reasons, provisionally, philosophy blog space seems to be perpetuating or even enhancing the relative marginalization of women's voices. Interestingly, if Newapps is a generalizable example, having women bloggers and talking frequently about gender inclusion issues does not significantly fix the problem.

  7. I'm not sure how suggestive these findings are. Or rather, I should say, I'm not sure what they suggest. The fact that women were 9 times less likely to be responded to seems just to reflect the base rate of posting comments at all. If we assume that each comment has an equal chance of being responded to, then since the ratio of men- to women-commenters is 10:1 or 5:1 (depending on which blog you look at), the ratio of men-respondees to women-respondees would also be 10:1 or 5:1. That would produce almost exactly the results Cassie found. The response-rates just reproduce the disproportionate comment-rates.

  8. Eric Schwitzgebel

    Very interesting!

  9. Interesting stuff. Question, Rebecca: how do these unofficial numbers compare with the actual gender composition of philosophy as a whole? If there are five times the number of men than women in the field to begin with, the rates don't seem that peculiar. If things are closer to 50/50, though, this is a much more confounding and important finding…

  10. ACS, one of the reasons I didn't collect that data was because there were just SO FEW comments identifiably from women that it seemed like too small a sample size to have much meaning. That in itself seemed significant. If I (or someone else) were to make a broader study of blog commenters I think these would be really interesting things to investigate.

  11. Brandon: It's hard to think of it that way because it's not clear first of all what counts as being 'in the field'. There were many undergrads posting on the professionalization thread, for example – are they 'in the field'? Furthermore Cassie was counting individual comments, to get a sense of the overall shape of the conversation, not individual commenters. In any case, the point, again, was not that women are being unfairly underrepresented, but rather about the shape of peripheral speech in philosophy blogs, whatever the causes.

    Finally, though, however one counts the field, women are definitely more than 1/9 of it!

  12. Mark: Your comment was in the spam hopper, sorry! I have basically the same response to you as to Brandon. I don't think they are suggestive of what you're suggesting we were suggesting. Again, we were not trying to point to specific exclusionary processes, but rather to the resulting shape of the conversation.

    To make things a bit more interesting: We hypothesize that if you looked at facebook threads that constitute peripheral philosophy speech – threads that have philosophical content, or make philosophy jokes, or are in any of a variety of ways directed at philosophy 'insiders', you'd find a quite different gender dynamic, with women more represented. It's an empirical question and we are not in a position to defend our hypothesis right now, so I will just put it out there as food for thought. Blog dynamics and facebook dynamics are different in all sorts of fascinating and relevant ways.

  13. William Hebblewhite

    I wannt to pick up on the exchange between Rebecca, Kathryn and Cassie on pseudonymity and discourse as it is something that I have a great interest in.

    In many avocational communities which I'm involved in it is not unusual to go by a pseudonym, a 'handle' or even be 'anonymous' In this way, as kathryn mentions there seems to be an equalization of members involved. While this may be the case on certain blogs, I think such an idea is somewhat deceiving within wider communities.

    There is an interesting dynamic(as I see it) that takes place when anonymity/pseudonymity is employed. A person becomes known for the way they can utilize the 'expert speech'. The better, more prolific you are at utilizing such speech usual gives you a higher regard in the avocational community. Futhermore it is often seen as bad mannered to question this persons use of the discourse given their position.

    As such the beginning notions of equality and liberty that one may feel in entering these communities is quickly put aside and new power-relations, not specifically based on identity, arise.

    As Cassie mentioned people who employ 'handles' aren't usually employing them to hide themselves, but identify themselves in a given community. However I would add that there given identities aren't usually given any credence if the person can't perform in the discursive acts of that community.

  14. Rebecca: My point was just that it should be unsurprising that there's a disproportionate distribution of responses given that there's a disproportionate distribution of comments to begin with. You seemed to think that this was surprising, since you put it in boldface.

  15. BoyWoman (aka Paula Coston)

    I find this discussion really fascinating. Two questions to raise about pseudonyms.
    1. Is it really not possible, from many pseudonyms, to hazard a guess, at least, about whether they are from a female or a male? I give my blog a pseudonym, BoyWoman, but it's pretty obvious which gender I am from that: I'm a woman interested in boys, men and the 'boundaries' between them and women, i.e. cross-gender issues.
    2. Also, so far it's been rather implied, hasn't it, that pseudonyms when posting are either used as a 'cloak' to hide beneath, or almost as a kind of 'self-publicity' – or at least, as one of you said, an 'open secret' within a certain community. Isn't there another powerful reason for using a pseudonym: namely, to make a statement about the essence of oneself or one's key interests? This might involve at least an implication of one's gender, mightn't it?

    Has anyone tried analysing the pseudonymns for their likely gender?

  16. I'm glad this issue of blogging and pseudonyms is being addressed. While I read blogs, I don't generally comment. Part of my hesitation in commenting is that I don't know whom I'm talking to, which unsettles me. This is in part due to an experience I had years ago. I sent Jennifer Saul something that was posted on FP, not realizing, of course, that she started the blog (or had anything to do with it). Somehow I found out a little later that I had sent her her own post, but I wasn't embarrassed about it until, soon after, I was party to a conversation among some women philosophers at a conference in which they all clearly knew all who the bloggers were at FP and assumed that everyone else in the conversation knew too. I was too embarrassed to admit that I did not know. In fact, to this day, I don't know. At any rate, if you believe that all the psuedononymous people know who one another are and you are the only one who doesn't, it is sort of intimidating to participate because you lack knowledge that is part of the common ground, as it were. This is especially true if you feel that your not knowing who the psuedononymous participants are signals an outsider status and hence undermines your credentials for participating.

  17. Cynthia: Thanks for sharing that; that's exactly the kind of dynamic I had in mind. I've had similar experiences. I think your point about signaling outsider status and undermining your credentials are especially spot-on. Again, this isn't about anyone's intentions, obviously!

  18. Corinne Dalelio

    I worked on a method in my dissertation to identify, map, and visualize these kinds of linkages in online discussion, you can download it here: http://mss3.libraries.rutgers.edu/dlr/showfed.php?pid=rutgers-lib:26519

    I think it could be really useful for applying to your tentative propositions about gender & identification here – would love to chat further about this if you are interested!

  19. I actually had an experience rather like Cynthia's, interestingly in exchange with our esteemed guest-blogger. A couple years ago, in discussing a thread, Rebecca said to me "well, of course everyone knows who x [FP member] is" and I replied, "well, not if I'm included in the domain of quantification."
    I'm not suggesting that it was super embarrassing, or excluding, or anything like that. But I do think that when lots of people who regularly communicate know who is named by some handle, it is very easy to assume without thinking that everyone does and there are probably all sorts of ways that such a tacit assumption could go awry.

    I also tend always to use my real name in posting at blogs – philosophy, politics, etc. – because I believe I should take responsibility for what I say. If it is wrong, offensive, stupid, etc. I think people should be able to direct their criticism to me. I realize that the vulnerability that comes with that is indexed to lots of dimensions of power. I realize that handles can provide some of that – as opposed to anonymity or people using multiple handles – and that there are other considerations that might go in the opposite direction. But I find an unwillingness to be a locus of responsibility to be a huge problem in public discourse and much worse on the web. So there is something significant on the side of real names.

    RK NOTE: For what it's worth, that's not quite how I remember the exchange or its implicatures. But Mark's point is independent of the exact anecdote and my role in it, I hope!

Designed with WordPress