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On being an attractive woman and being taken seriously in philosophy

Brian Leiter

A female graduate student writes:

I have recently found myself wondering about being a woman in philosophy who is feminine and sometimes perceived as attractive. As a teaching assistant, I have been hit on by undergraduate students. I once received uncomfortable emails from a student asking me on dates to the point where the instructor had to grade his work so that he did not have reasons to communicate with me. I have also been asked my credentials by male students on numerous occasions. Other male TAs I have consulted with do not share these experiences. After hearing my stories, one male TA remarked: "I'll keep my male privilege, thanks."

Another male colleague of mine was tremendously competitive with me while he was in graduate school. He was not competitive with other graduate students. He told me that a paper of mine (now published in a decent journal) reflects my immaturity, and that I received a higher grade than him in a seminar because the professor felt sorry for me. (I was sick near the end of the semester.) He also called me out for taking what he perceived as "female middle-ground positions," such as moderate foundationalism in an epistemology course, and raising too many feminist arguments–which did not, on his view, count as real philosophy.

It is possible that these examples are not connected to my being a woman in philosophy. But given that I have read and heard about other women sharing similar experiences, and have not read or heard about men facing similar experiences, I think it is reasonable to at least be suspicious about these connections.

I also use twitter to connect with philosophers around the world, and find it a generally supportive and stimulating space to communicate with like-minded people. But I received a troubling tweet in response to a (non-sexual) photo I posted recently. The tweet was by a male philosopher. He said that philosophers are not supposed to be pretty.

These experiences have made me wonder whether being perceived as pretty, to some, will also mean that I will be taken less seriously in philosophy. Clearly, the tweeter's comment was not well thought out. It was a tweet. But  do we still have distorted understandings about what philosophers are "supposed to be" or "supposed to look like"? 

And what about female philosophers who reject the false stereotypes that go along with "being feminist"? I am as committed to feminist philosophy as the next feminist philosopher, but I have long hair, and I care about fashion. I am professional, but I wear makeup and skirts. Because of this, I often feel out of place in philosophical circles where I feel as though my femininity removes me both from philosophy as a discipline, and from feminists as a group.

Ultimately, I am looking for advice from female philosophers about how to exist in a discipline that is still male-dominated, and how to embrace my femininity in ways that will not hurt my career.

Signed comments will be preferred, but any on-topic replies that include a valid e-mail address (which will not be published) will be approved.

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47 responses to “On being an attractive woman and being taken seriously in philosophy”

  1. Kris McDaniel

    I don't know how helpful this will be to the graduate student, but I think the following is a good resource for helping shake up stereotypes concerning how philosophers look (or are "supposed to look"). The original poster is probably already aware of it, but in case she is not or it is useful to others:

    http://looksphilosophical.tumblr.com/

    Reply
  2. New PhD

    (For context: I'm also a young female philosopher who is sometimes perceived as attractive, wears makeup/skirts, etc. Fortunately I haven't gotten much crap from fellow grad students or professors about it, but in a mere three semesters of teaching I have been asked out by a student and told by a student that he couldn't concentrate in class because he found me too attractive.)

    Maybe I only think such a thing is viable because I haven't gotten negative responses from peers or those in positions of power over me, just students, but I am inclined – somewhat in keeping with the blog Kris McDaniel posted – to think that the best thing to do for people in our situation (if I may presume to say my situation is the same as the OP's) is to continue as we have, not changing one's image to conform to the backwards expectations of some others, because continuing this way and being competent philosophically serves to prove those expectations wrong. (Ex: OP's colleague who called her paper immature is discounteed by the fact that it has been published in a respectable journal.) Being a feminine women in philsophy (or a POC in philosophy, queer person in philosophy, or anything else underrepresented in philosophy) has the potential to pave the way for others to do the same, so down the line female grad students who like skirts and makeup won't have to make posts like this.

    Perhaps it's naive of me to think this way – I am early enough in my career that I'm not very cynical yet – and maybe it will hurt my career in the long run. But to me at least (though the same may not be true of the OP of course) the value of continuing to present myself in the way I prefer, plus the value of potentially making it easier for others to do the same in the future, is worth the risk. Maybe I won't think so in a few years, but I do now.

    Reply
  3. Katy Abramson

    Fwiw: As long as you aren't wearing pajamas to class, wear what you want. Because in addition to many other points that might be made here, if your concern is impact on your career, here's the thing– those sexist jerks who use your outfits as ostensible grounds for inappropriately targeting and/or criticizing you? Yeah, they're sexist jerks. And if it weren't the outfit, it'd be something else. I'm sure of it.
    — make-up donning, skirt & high heel wearing, actively feminist,
    and a tenured philosopher,
    Kate Abramson

    Reply
  4. N.J. Jun

    I wouldn't presume to offer suggestions for dealing with such a ubiquitous and deeply entrenched problem in our profession; I wouldn't know where to begin, and I fear that anything I say would come across as feckless and trite.

    Nonetheless, I want to commend the OP for speaking out publicly and to express my solidarity with her and every other female philosopher who have suffered this sort of treatment. I am troubled and disgusted beyond words that our profession continues to be so misogynistic (and racist, and homophobic, and classist…). Thank you, also, to Professor Leiter and the moderators of other high-traffic philosophy blogs (such as NewAPPS and Philosophy Smoker) for their ongoing efforts to call attention to this issue.

    Reply
  5. Young Philosopher

    I had a female professor in undergrad that was undeniably beautiful. That was my first impression of her, but she was also a brilliant and informed philosopher and it was not long before I perceived her as such and the coincidence that she was a beautiful female did not at all persuade my opinion of her as a philosopher in one way or another. Just my experience.

    Reply
  6. New Masters

    It is very disappointing to hear that these kinds of pressures still exist. As an optimist I've been pleased that prejudice seemed to be decreasing. There are concerted efforts to maintain fairer distribution of employment and blogs like this call attention to incidents instead of just hushing them up. But then I hear about experiences like yours which are lamentable. A person's attractiveness and gender ideally shouldn't even be taken into consideration. The problem seems to be that prejudice is incredibly subtle. There are some interesting psychology studies where you measure a person for explicit racial attitudes and then measure how much closer they will sit in a lecture theater to a person of the same race. The damned thing about it is that even people who proudly identify as not racist at all tend to sit closer to people of their own races. So individually some of these people probably aren't even aware of it (with obvious exceptions such as the tweet comment), which unfortunately means that it can quickly add up to a very negative experience.

    I realise that this explanation may not be of very much comfort to you. However I can think of some advice that may help. A disclaimer first; I am male so this is only my opinion. I hope that it helps.

    1) Remember that you are not alone. I have also noticed that students are far more likely to challenge my female colleagues over marks etc than they ever have with me.

    2) Retain your independence. Under no circumstances should you start dressing down to be taken more seriously. You mentioned that you feel that your style excludes you both from philosophy and feminists. I think that your approach is a shining example of how people should approach style. You have developed one which expresses your own personality. Crucially you have not let philosophers dictate what you ought to wear or let feminist theory dictate what you ought not to wear. I thoroughly commend your courage and independence. Don't stop now!

    3) Don't be afraid to call people on their BS. I realise that this is a problematic idea. As a philosopher you shouldn't have to fight for respect and you may be wary of being pegged in the 'angry feminist' stereotype. The trick is to pick your battles. Calling a student on their prejudice if they challenge your marks etc is risky because the student doesn't have your experiences, they don't know that they are part of a bigger problem. But I would absolutely call people who attempt to discredit your papers, grades or comment on your appearance. This is classic BS and I would call them on it. As a male who has unintentionally offended female colleagues, I always prefer if they talk to me about it and make clear what the boundaries are.

    4) Make the environment adapt to you, not the other way around. Keep being who you are. Eventually people do come around and start to respect you. Most people's judgements about you are really about making themselves feel better. If you conform to their expectations, you are just playing into the stereotype and will reinforce their false beliefs. This is absolutely crucial for the dilemma you face about your femininity. It can be tempting at times to embrace more masculinity to succeed. I think that this is the wrong thing to do. Keep expressing your femininity and expect them to deal with their own hang ups. They may whisper about you in hallways for a while but they will respect you for sticking to your principles.

    5) Don't become disillusioned with the discipline. I am deeply sorry that you and other women regularly have to deal with this kind of crap. You shouldn't have to. Just remember that we are not all like that. I don't really care how you dress . . . like at all. You will probably have some tough times going forward, I imagine that the more you publish and get known, the easier it will become. If things get tough, just remember that you have an army of people who have your back on this and support you.

    Lastly I'm sorry that this has been your experience of the discipline. As post grads we all have to do a lot of work to earn the respect of our colleagues. But dress style and gender should have no effect on this at all. Hopefully one day, sooner rather than later, the 'is' will match up to the 'ought'.

    Reply
  7. Emily Vicendese

    Personally, I flat out REFUSE to dress dowdily on purpose for an academic context EVER. There are lots of eccentric types wandering around the hallowed halls, so why not wear bright lipstick and my puffy 50s skirts etc? I went to a Christmas function once when I was a first year, and I was worried about the short shorts with maroon tights I was wearing, then I saw retiring Professor John Fox giving a great speech while wearing ODD SOCKS. And I thought if he can wear odd socks I can wear short shorts and maroon tights.

    Reply
  8. Becko Copenhaver

    The discipline is taking some of the first steps in my lifetime in dealing with the kind of concrete cultural issues mentioned by the OP: subtle but real gender discrimination by peers and mentors. I have a lot of optimism about the degree to which we can change as a community once we make our collective will known with regards to how we wish to treat one another, both as humans and as people who want philosophy to be productive and welcoming. The OP should certainly visit the What It's Like To Be A Woman in Philosophy blog as well as the Feminist Philosophy blog.

    With regards to the other issues mentioned by the OP, I find myself hoping that these remarks are occasions for teaching moments. Many feminists are not women. Feminism celebrates and encourages people to act, and dress, and behave themselves in ways that reflect their choices as independent people who are fully capable of doing so, living in a society that is both safe and welcoming. Feminism is allied with movements about race, class, transgender, and disability. It is a movement about full participation, and a movement about a will against a society who views all of those people (i.e., the majority) as a threat. What a lot of feminist thought focuses on, along with thought about the other social and institutional structures that operate in the U.S., is the degree to which gender norms harm men, boys, family, girls, fathers, mothers, and women, and society. At the very least it's not about whether girls are pretty, though I can forgive a young person for thinking so. The OP may see this as confirmation of her inability to connect with feminists. All I can say is that I have never connected with the feminists of that imagination either, yet I am a feminist, so…welcome.

    Reply
  9. another female student

    I have no real advice with regard to the extent to which this will affect career–but with the exception of feeling out of place with feminists, your own experience like mine (even down to inappropriate tweet). I've decided that ultimately if the sexist jerks, creeps, and intending-to-be-nice-guys-who-should-not-be-telling-uninterested-colleagues-that-they-are-in-love-with-them dudes, do end up damaging my career prospects, then, well, so be it. Obviously, I don't want my career prospects to be damaged at all, but if our discipline is such that folks this are given the kind of power and control where they can push us out– then I really think I'd be better off doing something else. I remind myself of that when I'm feeling especially frustrated.

    I think Katy's right though. Often, the people who treat women they are attracted to as objects of romantic and sexual interest are the same people who wouldn't treat a woman equitably no matter what she looked like.

    As to finding ways to exist in the discipline, I've found it really helpful to my overall productivity to connect with equity-minded graduate students outside my department (both in other disciplines at my own university and in other philosophy programs). I also try to organize as much of my departmental life as I can around the philosophers here who don't treat me in ways that make me uncomfortable.

    Reply
  10. anonymous grad student

    While I don't think you have any sort of obligation to do the following things, and I think it's the people who are treating you this way who need to wise up, the following (advice I have received from a lot of senior and junior women faculty) has really helped me:

    Don't hedge a lot or be self-deprecating, or give preambles to the points you raise in seminars, talks, etc. (e.g. "I'm not really sure this is a good objection" or "this is sort of dumb, but", or "I think this is just a clarificatory question" (when it isn't).) Focus on coming across as confident in your thoughts, etc. (Which is not to say cocky!)I think it's hard to find the balance of doing this and not coming across as overconfident, but I suspect that most women grad students tend to err on the under rather than overconfident side.

    Maybe the woman who wrote the above already does these things. For me, it's taking years to get to the point where I can say things clearly and confidently and without first giving an introduction about why my point doesn't actually matter or is dumb or whatever. I am almost there, though, and though I am sure there are other factors that have contributed to this, I feel like I am noticeably better-respected (and less likely to be treated as a sex object) in the profession. Since it's something I've been working on for a long time (women are, generally, taught to act in this way! so it is often a struggle to retrain oneself), with noticeable results, I thought it was worth mentioning.

    I've never had a problem with teaching (perhaps in part because I had taught before philosophy grad school) but I suspect somewhat similar advice helps there: make clear that you are confident and in control, and don't second-guess yourself too much. (Here, again, it's a fine line: you want to be able to say when you don't understand something, etc., but you also want to make sure you aren't coming across as lacking confidence in your own abilities.)

    Again, to be clear: I don't think these are things that we should have to do, and in fact I sort of wish philosophers would generally be more modest and less confident all the time and admit when they don't know things or understand things or aren't sure when their arguments work. In fact, I would encourage senior men who are philosophers to work on coming across as more modest). I think it is unfortunate that in order to command respect in philosophy one needs to come across as incredibly confident in things that, quite frankly, I don't think any of us should be so confident in! But as things stand, I think it's a good idea for women to try to come across as confident and to not ever be self-deprecating. And I think it's a good idea for senior men who want to be good allies to women and younger people more generally entering the profession to be willing to say when they aren't sure about something or don't understand something, to try to combat the normalization of extreme overconfidence. But perhaps that last part is controversial.

    Reply
  11. Anonymous Philosopher

    The behavior the OP describes is clearly despicable and cannot be justified. But things get very interesting, I think, if we set aside questions of justification and focus instead on explanation. Truth be told, I’m often surprised when I meet philosophers of either gender who are very attractive, in the same way that I’m surprised when I meet an attractive mathematician or physicist. In part that’s because most members of our profession wouldn’t rate as highly attractive among the general public. But I think there’s more to it. If I may speculate, I suspect that I’m surprised when I encounter very attractive philosophers partly because, to do philosophy, you have to turn your back on the world as it is (to some extent) and spend a lot of time in your own head. That comes more naturally if you’re already removed from the world. If you’re attractive, though, you’re less likely to be so removed. In school, you were probably one of the popular kids. People wanted your company and your attention – your good looks got you into the club, so to speak. And it’s somewhat mystifying (to me) that the people that the world embraced and validated would then go on to shun the world and retreat into their own minds. And it’s not at all mystifying (to me) that unattractive people, who were more likely to be shunned and ostracized, would find solace in the world of ideas.

    As to the behavior the OP describes, it might be motivated by a kind of resentment. In our society, attractive people are a privileged class. Their looks alone get them benefits that others must struggle to acquire. So it’s natural to be somewhat suspicious of an attractive philosopher – do they really have the chops or are they the beneficiaries of a kind of social promotion, as attractive people often are in many areas of life? The burden, it seems, falls on them to prove that they belong. And, in light of their privileged position, that might not be altogether bad, even if it’s unfair.

    Reply
  12. Professor Plum

    Well, there is a lot that is being run together in this post that I think should be separated (such as, being “attractive” and being “feminine”), but I wouldn’t be surprised if it turned out that very feminine women have comparatively greater professional difficulties in philosophy. In a male dominated field, women who strongly announce their gender through their sartorial choices are going to stick out. However, the issue is complicated by the fact that philosophers—male and female—tend not to dress up when going about their day-to-day lives. So, the OP might be experiencing unfair sanctions because she presents herself in a very feminine way, or she might be experiencing unfair sanctions because she chooses to dress up in the first place.

    The inappropriate behavior exhibited by the OP’s students may not be correlated with her feminine presentation per se. I’ve known many women philosophers who varied in terms of their femininity, and I haven’t seen a clear correlation between the instructor being feminine and the student behavior that the OP describes. However, I have seen a correlation between this behavior and the instructor dressing in ways that are similar to how the undergraduate population dresses (e.g., wearing tank tops, tight jeans and flip-flops). Also, no matter what clothing one wears, being somewhat reserved or distant can help head this off (although this strategy opens women up to other sorts of criticisms and difficulties). Of course, I am in no way blaming the OP for the creepy, sexist behavior of her students and colleagues; I’m sorry she is experiencing this, and I think it is unfair that women in philosophy often deal with this sort of crap. However, when it comes to teaching, I’m not sure that there is a tight connection between being feminine or conventionally attractive and experiencing this sort of bad behavior—at least some of it can be headed off by how one runs one’s classes.

    Reply
  13. B. D. Carter

    I'm not a woman, so I can't comment with any sort of authority about 'embracing your femininity,' but I imagine in the field of philosophy, the best defense (and to be clear, you shouldn't *have* to defend yourself, but injustices abound, so do what you must) is a good argument. Insofar as that is the case, just point out to any who question that feminism is not about dressing in contrast to social or cultural expectations anymore than it's about dressing in agreement with them; rather, it's about acknowledging the expectations and pressure exists, and in so doing, being able to choose what you wear of your own volition, free of those pressures, instead of as a consequence of those cultural demands. Incidentally, your fashion choices may conform to expectations. But that's okay, because it's your choice rather than a product of the system, and you're hardly oblivious.

    If all goes to plan, the interlocutors will challenge the notion of free will and bam, you're back to philosophy with a welcomed change of topic. But joking aside, there's nothing wrong or distinctly contradictory about 'embracing your femininity' while simultaneously being a philosophical feminist, and as such, there should always be an open and persuasive discourse on the matter. The problem is not that you are dressing in a conventionally fashionable and feminine way, but that others fail to understand that it's okay, that it's not grounds to judge your ability or your professionalism per se. Help them. Call them out on their bull, put them in their place if you must. I see no better way of asserting your philosophical authority than by pursuing it doggedly, and in the process making dissenters and sexists all the better for it…at least, if they are as open minded as their field demands.

    Reply
  14. Craig Forster

    I am an old man, once a young and handsome art teacher who drove a loud sports car, female students accosted me around corners and I complained about their behavior to the Principal. One took exception to this and accused me of "handling" her. I was very close to being sacked but I protested and had the student moved to another school. Quite simply behave professionally, ethically and honestly within your domain but do not let that intrude on your person.

    Reply
  15. anonymous sr woman

    Attractive women are harassed more than unattractive women, especially while they are students. But apart from that, they have an advantage in philosophy. Many male professors will spend longer talking to an attractive, well dressed woman than an unattractive one. They will be more supportive of her ideas. They will encourage her more, and they will be a little more willing to help her in various career contexts. It's all part of the sexism of the profession. If you go to a workshop in m&e, and look around, you will notice that the general level of attractiveness amongst the female participants is usually far higher than that of the male participants. This is not an accident.

    Reply
  16. Helen Frowe

    A friend just sent this on to me, and it made me laugh – not because it's especially funny, but because it reminded me so much of my own experiences as both a graduate student and a lecturer. A couple of years ago, I was the Director of Undergraduate Admissions for Philosophy at my university. I introduced myself as such at an Open Day for prospective students and their parents, saying that I was also a lecturer in the Philosophy department and mentioning that my research interests are moral and political philosophy. First question? Someone's dad asks (in a tone of disbelief): "So do you actually have a *degree* in Philosophy?". Then, on the way out, you can hear them making the usual "they didn't look like that in my day" comments… When I got my first job, before finishing my PhD and before many of my fellow graduate students, one said publicly that this was because I was a woman and did a 'sexy topic' (yeah, war 'n' death 'n' killin'! SEXY.). Another (female) graduate student announced loudly at a conference dinner that I was a popular teacher "only because she teaches in really tight skirts". I get regular facebook messages / emails from random philosophy students at other universities with what we might call 'inappropriate content' – nothing nasty, but let's say that they don't express much interest in my take on the doctrine of double effect. I gave a talk at a UK department last year – one of their graduate students emailed me afterwards saying I was the prettiest philosopher he'd ever seen and maybe next time I came to Brighton I could stay at his place (I'd actually forgotten about that until just now. It still makes me laugh!). The list is kind of endless, really. There's less funny stuff on it, which I found more difficult to deal with as a graduate student, but these days, if someone puts their arm across the back of my chair during a talk or 'accidentally' squeezes my knee under the dinner table, I'd just be really loud about it – just turn to them, interrupt whatever conversation is going on and say "why have you got your hand on my leg?". I admit, it's easier to do the older and more confident you get, but they're only doing it *because* they think you won't say anything. They're unlikely to do it again once you've outed them at a table full of their colleagues. And it's way better to name and shame them than to e.g. skip the next day's sessions because you're so embarrassed by the whole thing (which I'm ashamed to admit I did once after a drunken professor launched himself at me one evening).

    But honestly, you'd get people like this in any profession, and in my experience, it really is a tiny minority, and often they're a minority who either think they're being funny or think that you are better than them. That still sucks, but you can either spend your time fretting about it, or spend your time publishing papers, getting into good conferences, being a good teacher: in short, being good at your job. And the beauty of it is that not only will this help you get the career you want, but nothing will be more effective in solving the problem of Being a Woman in Philosophy than actually being a good, visible woman philosopher. It's more effective than any campaign, website, petition or women-friendliness award. I don't think that being a woman makes me any less respected as a philosopher by anyone whose opinion I care about. You will occasionally turn up at a conference and have the person who invited you say "It's great you could come – otherwise we wouldn't have any women!", and then introduce you as 'Ms.' whilst elevating all the male speakers to Professor. That's annoying. But when you get those emails afterwards saying "I thought yours was the best paper of the conference", you can be ever-so-slightly smug :o)

    P.S. Wear whatever you like – one of the best things about philosophy is that you'll never have to wear a suit.

    Reply
  17. Holly Lawford-Smith

    I'm a Lecturer in Philosophy at the University of Sheffield, and I also happen to like vintage clothes, vintage bikes, and swing dancing. I don't wear makeup (not at all opposed, just too lazy) but I wear a lot of skirts and dresses and have a minor obsession with ankle boots that have a decent heel on them. So I probably – at least sometimes! – am perceived as 'feminine', and I can definitely relate to some of the experiences that the graduate student above mentions. However, I don't think those experiences should necessarily be interpreted as not being taken seriously in the profession by male philosophers. People who are attractive (and I mean this in the broadest sense, there's something great about their face, or their body, or their character, they're charismatic, they laugh easily… whatever) "attract" people! Sounds a bit silly but it's not a problem unique to philosophy or even academia. I remember getting ridiculous crushes on my lecturers or visiting speakers or senior students when I was an undergraduate, and I don't think that ever meant that I didn't take the relevant person seriously as a scholar or academic. Usually rather the opposite, it was the combination of intellectual impressiveness with a chemical twist! All of that is just to say, I wouldn't be inclined to read offers and advances as insults or even as gendered (although perhaps given recent history, there's a norm of 'pursuer' and 'pursued' that will mean women statistically receive more such offers than men, hopefully this is changing). The thing to learn is how to handle them in a professional way that makes clear what is expected in an academic setting, and what your boundaries are (or maybe the boundaries your institution would like you to have!) As an attractive female philosopher you may have to deploy this professionalism more often than an unattractive male philosopher would, and this is unfortunate, and maybe annoying, but I don't think it reveals that (attractive) women are taken less seriously academically. I'm still learning how to handle such situations but although it's happened a number of times that some sort of advance has been made, it's only happened once that an undergraduate student has actually implied, in attempting to flirt with me, that he knew more about a first-year subject than me; and then I simply asked him why he thought I wouldn't know that already, given that I'd been studying philosophy for thirteen years, had a PhD, and was his Lecturer. That seemed to do the trick!

    Reply
  18. anonymous grad student

    I hope that anonymous sr woman is not suggesting that we have evidence that, all things considered, "attractive" women have it better in philosophy than "unattractive" women do. As someone who has experienced a lot of unwanted attention, some harassment, this doesn't cohere with my experience–because those things are really incredibly debilitating. I doubt that the advantage of having certain men be willing to engage for longer or pay more attention to me at a conference outweighs the negative effects that the unwanted attention/harassment have had on my psychology and hence on my work. And if men are doing that because I am attractive rather than because they are interested in my work, I somehow doubt that the extra time they are willing to spend talking to me is going to magically make them view me as a good philosopher. If they are viewing me as a sex object to begin with, it's very unclear that the advantage that is suggested is a real advantage.

    Even having to constantly worry about whether I am, in fact, receiving conference invitations, or being engaged with by bigshot philosopher x, because someone finds me attractive rather than because someone thinks my work is impressive has a debilitating effect. I don't think that sr woman is making the above claim, but I'd like to caution against others reading it off of her post. It strikes me as sharing a problematic structure with the sort of (false) claim that you hear a lot in philosophy about women generally having an advantage over men.

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  19. Jeff H

    "I remember getting ridiculous crushes on my lecturers or visiting speakers or senior students when I was an undergraduate, and I don't think that ever meant that I didn't take the relevant person seriously as a scholar or academic. Usually rather the opposite, it was the combination of intellectual impressiveness with a chemical twist! All of that is just to say, I wouldn't be inclined to read offers and advances as insults or even as gendered…"

    Speaking from the other side of the gender fence – this, this, a thousand times this. Crushes on colleagues, superiors, or (especially) subordinates – or rather, the behaviour they can engender – might be inappropriate for a thousand different reasons but being somehow *insulting* isn't one of them. I don't understand the assumption that such things automatically mean the person on the receiving end isn't being taken seriously as an intellectual. I hear enough stories that I must concede that this is *sometimes* the case, but in my own experience and that of people I've known personally, such things have been vastly more likely to result from – or alternatively, result *in* – an overabundance of intellectual respect, than the lack of it. Intelligence is hot.

    Reply
  20. Jeff H

    Maybe I should clarify, though I think it's already implied, that my above post isn't necessarily meant to say this kind of behaviour isn't a problem, only that the problem might be being misdiagnosed.

    Reply
  21. Laura Grams

    Nothing about having long hair and interest in fashion, makeup, or skirt-wearing should make a person feel "out of place in philosophical circles". I can understand why someone might feel that way initially, especially when experiencing some of the offensive overtures described above. Nevertheless, it's important to develop a stronger conviction that your appearance is fine, and that it is reasonable to expect professional behavior from others. The annoyance of being hit on in contexts where you shouldn't be is not exclusive to "pretty" people, to women, or to philosophy. It happens to people of all kinds, so anyone in a workplace setting should be prepared to deal with it. Personal attention from students can create especially awkward situations, but it's important to be firm about expectations of professionalism. If that doesn't work, seek assistance from your colleagues or another appropriate ombudsperson. I have occasionally heard students offer appreciative evaluations of the looks of some of my male colleagues, which I hope never creates an uncomfortable situation for them. It would be awful of anyone to think that their appearance is somehow out of place or could be career-harming as a result.

    For someone starting out in the field who is feeling this sort of discomfort, it may help to find a few role models who can reinforce your ideas about what's normal or possible. As a first-year undergrad I remember seeing Martha Nussbaum come to speak. She was in a beautiful blouse, scarf, and business suit with gorgeous hair. I don't think anyone could have stopped her from being awesome. I thought, sure, that could be me – if only I were rather more brilliant and a better writer! As a grad student I once had lunch with Rosamond Kent Sprague, who was tremendously warm and encouraging. I remember to this day she was wearing a lovely, brightly colored suit with shiny heels, pearls, and perfectly arrayed curls. She could have been having lunch at the White House or something. I don't think anyone was going to suppress her general awesomeness or make her feel out of place. This should have nothing to do with feminism; if you encounter "feminists" who put down your appearance, find a new crowd of feminists! Usually they are not into shaming people for wearing skirts.

    Comment #6 above, I found very wise: "4) Make the environment adapt to you, not the other way around. Keep being who you are. Eventually people do come around and start to respect you. Most people's judgements about you are really about making themselves feel better." I don't think it's in any way natural to be suspicious of an attractive philosopher or ask whether they are "the beneficiaries of a kind of social promotion"; or to the extent that it is, it shouldn't be, and a good way to combat that is to keep being you, awesomely!

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  22. RD

    Attractiveness is a double-edged sword. One gets more attention and all sorts of preferential treatment (as pointed out by 'anonymous sr woman above'), but also lots of unwanted attention, and a nagging feeling of insecurity ("am I really here because of my brains?").

    In any case it seems to me that the OP conflates two issues: looks and attention to clothes. A person who appears to give a lot of thought to his or her clothes is likely to be taken less seriously in philosophy all things equal, looks included.

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  23. Retired Woman Philosophy Professor

    Many of the answers to the questions posed will become much clearer if one realizes and accepts that what counts as "attractive" and which clothing attracts (sexual) attention are social constructions in our white patriarchal society. Given this, if a woman wants to be "attractive" in these contexts, then much baggage, seen and unseen, comes with it.

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  24. Fed up undergrad

    This is very upsetting to hear. Currently, I am an undergrad philosophy student at a 'top' UK university and twice I have been approached by two of my male GTAs. One kept holding me behind seminars for no reason until I told him it made me uncomfortable. I told my personal tutor this, a male, and he laughed and found it funny. A second was drunk at a party and kept trying to make advances. After I made it clear his advances were unwelcome he was very abusive towards me, not only in email but in public too. Despite having evidence of this abuse, albeit none of his behaviour at the party, I was told to leave the GTA alone because I was upsetting him, and this was from female professors. The only solution I have is to wear a ring on my wedding finger and to pretend I am married; I haven't had any trouble since and if I did I certainly wouldn't bother to go to anyone in my dept.

    I would have thought that the female graduate student in question would have received a lot more respect seeing as she had solid achievements under her belt. The attitude of some of her students towards her is very disgusting. Having a helpful and insightful GTA is extremely important as an undergrad otherwise for all purposes you don't really have a GTA. Many times I haven't received my essays back from GTAs, or GTAs haven't turned up to the seminar on a regular basis or even when they do, just sit their and ignore their students whilst they worked on their dissertation. They clearly put no effort in and the students gain no benefit from them being there. In one seminar, we actually had better discussions when the GTA wasn't there as the GTA would talk about poetry or their personal experience of philosophers than the actual text.

    I feel sorry for the minority of her students who don't make use of her talent as a philosopher, they will have missed out on a great deal and at the end of the day they will be loosing out.

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  25. Holly Lawford-Smith

    "A person who appears to give a lot of thought to his or her clothes is likely to be taken less seriously in philosophy all things equal, looks included".

    Given that you think this, you're probably one of the offenders, and I suspect there are many others. It's unacceptable! You have how many hobbies or interests outside Philosophy? Why is playing video games for two hours a day or watching films or cooking elaborate meals (e.g.) any more or less acceptable as a choice about how to spend one's leisure time or live a good life than thinking for ten minutes in the morning about what to wear, or going shopping with friends in a weekend? Answer: it's not. People are free to do exactly as they please (with the usual liberal theorists' constraints), and those choices imply absolutely nothing about their abilities as an intellectual / academic.

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  26. LogicFan

    It is a perhaps regrettable but true fact of the profession that attractive people are treated unequally–they obtain benefits which are undeserved. Of course, this is not unique to philosophy; it's true in most professions and in life generally. Being beautiful is a powerful advantage. Myself, not being an attractive person, find it hard to be in sympathy with the OP. It seems to me that she is not looking at her situation with an objective eye.

    For example, it's hard to see how a tweet that "philosophers are not supposed to be pretty" is "troubling". It's just a nice comment, although perhaps a little awkward in its attempt at flattery. But I'd like to receive such a comment. It would really make my day.

    Nor is it clear why being grilled about her credentials has something to do with her appearance. I'm grilled about my credentials all the time. In the absence of evidence I don't think we can make the connection to her appearance.

    Obviously the undergraduate's requests for dates is inappropriate. But it is not a serious thing, and that undergraduate is young, developing, struggling with his own sexuality, and generally learning how to interact with persons. We should show some sympathy even as we stress the inappropriateness of the contact.

    Complaints like these seem self-indulgent to me and distract from genuine problems which people in our profession face (you want a challenge? Try living on $35,000 a year.) My advice to the OP is this: Be thankful for your genetic luck; understand that none of us on the other side of things (even aware of the "challenges" of being beautiful) would elect (ceteris paribus) to be in our shoes rather than hers; and accept that she will on occasion be subjected to male (and female) interest. In any case, her success or failure will, in the end, be overwhelmingly determined by the quality of her work.

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  27. Undergrad

     I agree with comment 19. Why does it follow that you don't take women seriously as philosophers if you also find them attractive? The OPs experiences were certainly unpleasant but I find some of the comments here (and on other blogs discussing women in philosophy) to be extremely strange. For example, comment 9:

     "Often, the people who treat women they are attracted to as objects of romantic and sexual interest are the same people who wouldn't treat a woman equitably no matter what she looked like."

    So complimenting a woman on her appearance or trying to get a date with her is sexist (or suggests that you're probably a sexist)? It's obvious that you can go to far in expressing your attraction for someone and it's obvious that there are certain contexts where doing do would be clearly inappropriate. But the idea that there is anything intrinsically, always wrong with expressing such feelings or that horror is an appropriate reaction because such expressions indicate that the man is probably a sexist pig seems utterly absurd.

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  28. RD

    I don't think that at all. I merely said that clothes-horses are likely to get taken less seriously — just a factual observation. I'm male and actually on the other side of the divide, as I'm quite aesthetically minded, and so care about clothes. I did my PhD at a Leiterrific department with a strong LEM focus, and certainly got my fair share of prejudice there and (less so) at various universities were I worked, though that is partly tempered by the 'excuse' that I'm Italian (yes, another ridiculous prejudice).

    The implicit or explicit bias in favour of nerdiness isn't going away anytime soon, but frankly the profession has bigger problems than that. Class, for instance, is an even bigger issue than gender.

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  29. E Knox

    When I started teaching at graduate level, I also received some surprising challenges from students, and some occasional questions about my qualifications that I was sure my male counterparts weren't receiving. But it does get better! There's a confidence that comes with a little more seniority that students respond to. It's only been 7 years since my first teaching experiences as a graduate student, and I doubt I look all that much older (or so I like to tell myself), but it's been some time since I've experienced the problem.

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  30. Rkukla

    Some of you may remember the kerfuffle in March over the professor who sent a letter of recommendation to many philosophy grad programs, including ours, that included the following lines:

    "You will have to forgive a bit of political incorrectness, but I think it important. Y happens to be a beauty and enhances her fine looks with a careful attention to her grooming and clothes. Since I tend to associate philosophic depth with an alienation from the codes and conventions of everyday life, I found it hard to believe that Y was producing not only excellent philosophic work, … but thoughtful philosophical work."

    This seems to be serious confirmation of Holly's point, and it is a despicable attitude. I did write to the letter-writer on behalf of my whole admissions committee and tried to call him out, and I got a kind of apology back, though not one that showed a grasp of why the attitude itself is problematic.

    Anyhow this is all just to say that these attitudes are out there in the profession – this guy didn't just think this, but thought that it was an obvious enough way to think that of course all the admissions committee members reading the letter would be sympathetic. And Holly is right that there is nothing ok about thinking this way. It doesn't make you cool or intellectual; it just makes you sexist and narrow-mindedly judgmental.

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  31. Laura Grams

    Rkukla, that is an awful story. What could be more "conventional" than to judge people on the basis of their looks and clothing choices like that? I certainly hope that attitude is not the norm among people in philosophy. Perhaps outside a job interview itself, I always thought a wide array of formality in dress was accepted in philosophy, and this was a good thing. I hope an effective response is simply for people to forge ahead and be great, however they may look or dress. Given the attitudes people outside philosophy sometimes have about it, maybe we need some more positive attention to building each other up instead of trying to cut each other down over trivial concerns.

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  32. female PhD

    I would like to register my agreement with what Lawford-Smith and LogicFan have said. I'll add this: Not just the Attractive Philosopher, but the Attractive Anything is likely to be recognized initially for his or her attractiveness. After all, attractiveness is a feature that presents itself more readily to an observer than does, say, philosophical aptitude. Given that attractiveness works in this way, it is also likely that the Attractive Anything will have to take some measures in order to draw an observer's attention to the other feature(s) that Attractive Anything would prefer to have recognized. This is perhaps irksome or even taxing; I doubt that it is unjust.

    I suppose I think that being attracted to and attractive to others is an unavoidable aspect of human interaction. I have no doubt that some people (perhaps men more than women) haven't yet figured out how to deal maturely and appropriately with their feelings of attraction, particularly in a professional setting. I don't think that this is Philosophy's special problem. I also don't think that the lesson of this discussion should be that Philosophy is an especially bad place for [attractive] women or that males in the profession need to get a hold of themselves.

    Instead, I suspect that the lesson to be learned is this: (1) Both men and women should be more mindful of how they allow their noticing another person's attractiveness to influence their behavior towards and treatment of that person. (2) If you feel that someone's behavior towards you is disrespectful, don't assume that it's intentionally or maliciously so, but do definitely say something to that person. They may not get that their behavior is inappropriate until someone takes the trouble to point it out to them.

    Oh, yes, and I myself have yet to meet a BAMF female philosopher who has trouble being taken seriously. For me, this observation teaches me that doing good philosophy is the most important thing to worry about.

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  33. anonymous sr woman

    Rkukla, good point. I think, if someone is truly model-beautiful, and not just attractive or good looking relative to the rather low standards set by academia, that your example provides evidence that some people won't take them as seriously as they should.

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  34. David Velleman

    Some relevant research:

    Johnsona, Podratzb, Dipboyec & Gibbons ( http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224540903365414#.UfwvclPk-e0 ), discussed at http://thestatsblog.wordpress.com/2010/08/10/attractive-women-at-disadvantage-for-unattractive-jobs-study-says/

    Ruffle & Shtudiner ( http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1705244 ), discussed at http://www.economist.com/node/21551535

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  35. David Velleman

    Research by philosophers:

    http://www.kipnews.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Running-Head_-Mind-Perception-and-Objectification.pdf

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  36. AA Rini

    Who does this describe?
    "his calves were slender (so they say), his eyes small, and he was conspicuous by his attire, his rings, and the cut of his hair"

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  37. another female grad student

    A few of these comments seem to suggest that women who get attention based on their appearance are lucky and should appreciate the benefits, or at least that there's nothing wrong with it.

    I skipped a seminar on occasion because I felt too emotionally drained to deal with another grad student's compliments on my appearance and requests to talk about my work outside of class alone. This was someone who I had to explicitly tell I was not interested after being asked whether I was single in front of my students. I didn't get much out of the seminar with him around. People were talking philosophy but I couldn't stop worrying about what would he would say to me during the break and whether I should sneak out right then and not come back.

    The other night I left a party early. Someone I generally like who works in my area and is good friends with famous philosophers I want to talk to kept commenting on my appearance and touching me. Was I going to publicly shame this person? I tried to charitably interpret flirting as innocent a few times as a first-year and it didn't end well.

    It's a miserable situation to be in. You're either (1) distracted from philosophy in professional contexts and avoiding social events where the informal shop talk and networking is happening, or (2) hurting someone's ego and having a person who works in your area, or is well-liked in the profession, or you have to see all the time start ignoring or being mean to you. It's hard to believe that having to deal with this day after day is irrelevant to (or a positive influence on) quality of work.

    PS I don't wear makeup or feminine clothes, everyone knows I have a girlfriend, it's the same BS

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  38. Female Postdoc

    I am a female philosopher who spends an inordinate amount of time looking at, thinking about, purchasing and planning outfits. I wear skirts and bangles and lipstick and have a habit of giggling to the point of hiccups with fairly minimal stimulation. In fact, I'm pretty sure I come across as a complete ditz. As a PhD student I was very, very worried about how I would make it in the profession. I was convinced that there was no place in academic philosophy for ladies like me because no one would respect me. Partly, this was because I was also just convinced I was a bit dumb. One semester we had a visiting PhD student who was half a decade older than me. She was absolutely beautiful. Moreover, she was warm and friendly and charming and generally well-groomed and put together. And she was incredibly smart. This experience was life-changing for me. I watched everybody for an entire semester ask this lady questions, invite her to workshops, invite her to give lectures and so on. The two of us spent some time together and I asked her about her attitude to all the men around her. She said that on the rare occasion that she ever encountered any actual problems, she just assumed that the trouble-maker was a bit silly, possibly a bit dumb and was deserving of pity. Her attitude was that anyone who makes it to their mid-20's and beyond and hasn't yet worked out that the sheer effort of putting a skirt on in the morning doesn't exhaust a woman's mental powers is to be pitied rather than feared. I've never worried about being stereotypically girly since. (Sadly this is not to say that I haven't thought twice about how I should dress on occasion to avoid unwanted harrassment.)

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  39. Ken Taylor

    If you are personally and/or physically attractive and also brilliant and creative, you have the best of all possible worlds. People may begin attending to you because of your attractiveness, but once you have their attention, then dazzle them with your brilliance. To be sure, some people may be blinded to your other virtues by you personal or physical attractiveness — too bad for them. Well, too bad for them as long as they don't have any real power over you. When blindness is married to power serious problems arise. It's the worry about that sort of thing that drives so many attempts to build into our lives safeguards that protect us from such blinded power. That's a good thing. But it's not a sufficient thing. More work to be done always. More consciousness lifting to be done always. But still, I know a fair number of hugely attractive people in the academy who are also utterly brilliant. Mostly they don't suffer from the combination. It gets tricky, I think, when you don't know how good you are, especially when you're just starting out and trying to find your way in a very competitive and sometimes brutal world. Then the slightest of slights can send you into a tailspin of self-doubt. I'm tempted to give a bit of impractical advice — impractical because I don't know a reliable method of implementing it. The impractical advice is this — simply don't let jerky people send you in to tailspins of self doubt. I know, easy to say, hard to do. But the thing is you can't do philosophy if you start out filled with self-doubt. You have to find away to banish them or at least keep them in check. Doing philosophy is harder even than hitting a biting fastball coming in on your hands at 95 mph. The hitters who can regularly pull that off have to have a lot physical skill, but they also have to have a lot of self-belief. Cause if they don't have self-belief, the asshole pitcher will get in their heads and toy with them and ruin their timing and cause them to go into major, major slumps — despite their physical skill. That's because physical skill isn't exercised in a vacuum — it's exercised by a person in a context, a person with a mind and a heart and vulnerabilities. I wish philosophy were less like doing battle like that. But so many things conspire against it being that. Surviving and thriving in it starts (but doesn't end) with self-belief and self confidence. A delicate balance has to be struck here, of course. No one wants to be deluded. No wants to have unshakable beliefs about their own abilities that are evidently false. That's a recipe for serious disaster. On other hand, you can't be completely hostage to the world for self-validation. That's a recipe for another kind of disaster — especially in a world that isn't always cooperative, that is constantly delivering the equivalent of 95 mph biting fastballs in on your hands. Hopefully, not everybody in one's life is like the asshole pitcher. Hopefully there are honest, caring colleagues, mentors, students, friends, etc. who have provide a high degree of validation that looks beyond the physical/personal attractiveness. Hopefully armed with that validation you can step up to bat against the assholes, ready to battle, confident that you can triumph.

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  40. SG

    My experiences were that women were far more venomous to me in my career. Men were the usual–flirty, weird, inappropriate, etc. But the women colleagues who tried to undermine my credentials, publications, throw my tenure case under a bus, and were generally horrible? Very unpleasant, for years. Was it because I was young and pretty? Some said so, but who knows.
    The only thing you can do is succeed. Never give in to whatever twisted narrative others try to impose. Full professor is the best revenge!

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  41. LogicFan

    That is a very insightful, and to my mind correct, analysis by Ken Taylor.

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  42. Charles Pigden

    Aristotle?

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  43. Charles Pigden

    But honestly who can take a guy seriously if he has spindly legs? Sounds as if he has been spending too much time with the fashion consultant or beautician and not enough time with his trainer (Gorgias 465). Perhaps that is why he fell out with Plato!

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  44. anonymous

    When I was a graduate student in philosophy you did have to attend seminars and the lecture series. But you did not have to associate with the other graduate students. I knew a few female students a professor complained about…they weren't around the department much. But who could blame them. As long as you are funded or at least not paying tuition you won't think you are not getting what you are paying for by avoiding the program. Just do the reading, hand in the papers, and find conversation elsewhere.

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  45. Helen Frowe

    Hi AFGS,

    The party bit of your story sucks, and I agree that my suggestion of naming and shaming is less practical in these situations (yelling 'get off my leg' loud enough to be heard over the music is likely to make everyone think the guy's launched some kind of full frontal assualt that imminently endangers your life). But you musn't stop going to parties, because, as you say, (a) they're fun, and (b) they are in their own way important. My practical advice would be to enlist a friend (or two) next time to keep on an eye on you. Seana Shiffrin once very kindly rescued me from this kind of situation at a party by dashing up to me and announcing in a tone of great urgency that she absolutely needed to borrow me RIGHT NOW, before grabbing my elbow and steering me towards another group of people. A total stranger at a conference rescued me by walking up to the guy and wordlessly putting her hand on his upper arm. He says "Er.. what are you doing?". She says, "Oh I'm sorry – I thought we were all just randomly touching each other. Are we not?" It made me snort my drink a bit because it was so funny but it was well worth it. I never found out who it was to say thanks, though! Get your friend to do something similar if he / she sees this guy try to occupy your attention for more than the briefest of chats. Basically, treat it like you would a night out – if you see your friend in a club being cornered by someone you suspect she has little desire to talk to, you waltz on over annoucing that you're terribly sorry but it's her round and the rest of you are dying of thirst. Of course, this does nothing to address the root of the problem – I still think naming and shaming is the way to go there – but it's a practical way of dealing with cases in which you don't want to name and shame or cause a fuss. You don't need to make a big deal of it – you can tell your friend that the guy merely bores you rather than strokes you if you prefer. And this person might be someone whom you're wary of offending, and he might well pick up on what you're doing, but try to put it into perspective. He's just one guy – hardly your sole route to academic success. Other people work in your area, other people will introduce you to those famous philosophers. If you want to talk to someone, go over and politely introduce yourself – don't wait for this guy to do it (he's unlikely to anyway if he wants your attention all to himself). You're much worse off skipping events altogther and thus not talking to anyone than attending and pissing one person off.

    As for skipping seminars because of unwanted attention: this is a recipe for disaster. You make yourself less visible, and you miss out on learning stuff. Why should you do that? For this kind of problem you need to talk to your supervisor or head of department. Difficult, I know, but again – put it into perspective. What's more important: attending class and staking your claim to be an active member of the department, or avoiding the risk of minor conflict with another student who's behaving badly? As you say, the daily effect of doing nothing and trying to avoid this guy is hardly a cost-free option, so better to take the bull by the horns and lead it to an electric fence.

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  46. kweeden

    If you haven't seen it already, I highly recommend Gioia de Cari's "Truth Values", a solo play about being a woman and a traditionally feminine student in the PhD program in Mathematics at MIT (web site: unexpectedtheatre.org). She's based in NY, but takes the show around to various colleges and universities, often by invitation from NSF ADVANCE programs or other groups that support women graduate students and faculty in STEM disciplines.

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  47. C

    This may complicate our discussion, though I believe giving voice to my story can ultimately be helpful at identifying the issues underneath the surface in our profession. For context, I am a straight male, 40, tenured, single, white, and at a middle-level state college. I have endured years of my colleagues ribbing me about the way I look and dress — at department meetings, off-campus gatherings, even when sitting in on my classes. Countless times they have suggested students take my classes simply because of the way I look (which is always followed with "you know I'm only joking, right?"). Every semester I put up with female (and male) students saying leading and inappropriate things to me in and out of class. I had a male student find my cell phone number and send a picture of his privates to me. I have had several female colleagues stop speaking to me because I spurned their advances. I attended a conference two years ago and an up-and-coming female philosopher had a bit too much to drink during the evening mixer and was hanging all over me — it was embarrassing. I actually had a female colleague tell me, "Get your head out of your pants" — which she screamed in front of a secretary and student. My department secretary said to me one morning, "I had a sex dream about you last night." I said nothing, laughed nervously, and walked on up to my office. Later in the day she said she was just kidding. I had another female colleague (in another department) text me during a party, "Wanna f***?" I just went home and never brought it up with her.

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