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How to dissuade students from pursuing graduate work in philosophy?

Brian Leiter

A junior philosopher writes:

While the vast majority of my students are perfectly happy to study philosophy in college and never crack open another book , I periodically meet with someone interested in pursuing graduate school.  While these range from academically-inclined and hard-working students to those who clearly lack the academic credentials to be admitted anywhere, there are some for whom I just think graduate school would be a bad idea. I wonder if folks who’ve been in the profession longer have developed good strategies for talking to students who they wish to dissuade from pursuing a graduate career. Part of my concern is that such students may end up in poor PhD or expensive terminal MA programs that may result in great quantities of debt and few job prospects (I know that an MA can be a wonderful place to “try it out”, but in this economic climate, allowing students to accrue more debt seems morally troubling). I try to be as dire about the prospects for success in the profession as I can, but this doesn’t seem sufficient.

What do readers think?

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38 responses to “How to dissuade students from pursuing graduate work in philosophy?”

  1. Graduate student

    As a former MA student, I just wanted to point out a fact that has been discussed on this blog many times: there are plenty of very good MA programs that won't cost you a penny. (A good number of the Leiter-reccommended ones in fact.) Of course, there are probably students you wouldn't even recommend wasting 1-2 years of time in such a program. But going to an MA to "try out" philosophy need not be prohibitively expensive.

    Reply
  2. bhtphilo

    I once had a professor in Australia tell me that academia was just too risky a profession, but that it certainly wasn't going anywhere. This was at a good graduate program at an elite university and he wasn't thrilled about his job (and the risks with budget cuts that are seemingly always in the air).

    Things are a little different in Australia, and Europe from what I understand, where MA's and PhD's are basically free to pursue-and can be pursued part-time, allowing people to work. But the basic advice, of gaining some work experience and/or business skills, and then returning to philosophy if you still want it doesn't seem terrible to me.

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  3. Will

    To graduate student:

    How would someone get into a very good MA program that doesn't cost anything when they do not have an undergraduate degree in philosophy? It seems like these graduate programs want students that are already "in" philosophy (in the sense of having written papers, published as an undergrad, connected with professors as an undergrad, etc).

    For what it's worth, I'm in an odd position in that I *want* to study philosophy at the graduate level but didn't do much philosophy as an undergrad (I took two courses and my degree is in engineering). At the moment, I am taking graduate level philosophy courses at a public university (part-time, while I work full time) just to "try it out" and I'm absolutely loving it. I'd *love* to quit my day job and go full time. But the issue is 1) How would I pay for the degree (given that I'm paying out of pocket now with the funds from my full-time job) and 2) The school I am actually going to is lower tier (and we know this is a no-no given the advise on this blog as well as everywhere else), which, assuming I still went to said school, would probably limit my career, were I to try to go for a PhD.

    Again, it's a sticky situation for me. I'm making great money now, but would much rather do philosophy. Any advice from you folks would be appreciated.

    BL COMMENT: Terminal MA programs regularly take students with strong academic credentials but little philosophy background.

    Reply
  4. Mark

    I'd like some good strategies to dissuade professors from thinking that it is their job to dissuade students from going to graduate school.

    Reply
  5. anon ex-adjunct

    And most PhD programs won't cost you a penny, either. There are, presumably, lower-ranked PhD programs that will admit less qualified students and make them pay through the nose, but most programs aren't like that. Most programs, even the non-Leiterific ones, will fund students for at least four years. This is the case in Canada, at any rate. As far as I know, there is no PhD program here that doesn't fund each student for at least that long (at around $20,000 per year, which one can live on). And usually the funding extends well beyond that. So if the argument is that we should dissuade less qualified students from pursuing graduate work because they'll incur a lot of useless debt, then I'm not persuaded. There's another argument, though, hinted at by the OP, that might be more persuasive, namely, that by not doing more to dissuade less qualified students from pursuing graduate work, we're helping to perpetuate a system in which a large number of PhDs are effectively unemployable (except, perhaps, as lowly adjuncts).

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  6. Tim Maudlin

    I don't think this has much to do with the ability of the student. I have standardly said to every student who comes to me that the only way one should go to graduate school in philosophy is if one enjoys studying philosophy so much that even if after 6 years you can't get a job in the field and have to do something else you won't regret it. And one source of regret could be having amassed debt, so that is a big factor. I think this is just being honest, since none of us can assure any student, no matter how good, of a different outcome. This is actually a little milder than the advice I was given by Bob Fogelin in 1980: "Not even if you were Immanuel Kant would I recommend going to graduate school in philosophy"".

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  7. Anonymous grad student

    Here's one thing you could do to dissuade students from pursuing graduate school: _Stop giving them the very highest marks in upper division undergraduate philosophy seminars_. In other words, reserve those A+s only for those students who should consider graduate school. Why? Because the very highest marks in those courses suggest to students, as they suggested to me when I was an undergraduate, that they have whatever it takes to succeed in graduate school.

    In hindsight, this is the only thing that would have dissuaded me, as I probably should have been dissuaded, from pursuing graduate school. I knew that only students with the very highest marks in upper division undergraduate seminars were even considered for graduate school by top departments. So I wouldn't have applied had I not been awarded those marks. But I was. So I did.

    Nothing you say to dissuade your students from graduate school will carry any weight with them, if they've been told over several years, via their grades, that they are excellent philosophers. Here's some anecdotal evidence: When one professor of mine didn't strongly encourage me to give graduate school a shot, I just found another that was more strongly encouraging, since I was absolutely convinced, because of my high marks, that the first professor was wrong. After all, why else would they have awarded me such high marks if they didn't think I was awesome at philosophy? Such was my delusional thought process, and such is likely the thought process of your students, if you've been giving them A+s throughout their undergraduate careers.

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  8. Kerry Vaughan

    The problem seems to be that this type of advice is always delivered by someone with a job in philosophy. A better option might be to find someone for whom philosophy as a career did not work out and connect the students with that person.

    Reply
  9. Douglas W. Portmore

    I don't think that we should be trying to dissuade people from pursuing graduate school. Had any of my professors done so, I might have missed out on what has turned out to be a wonderful career that seems particularly well-suited for me and my interests. And I could easily see a professor who was arrogant enough to think that he or she knew what would be best for me trying to dissuade me from pursuing a graduate degree in philosophy, for I was late to philosophy, quite clueless, and a mediocre student to boot. What I do, then, in advising students is to inform them as best as I can as to what the options are and what the pros and cons are of each of the options are. I even tell them, if appropriate, what I think their strengths and weaknesses are, while noting the extent to which my judgments about such matters are fallible. There have certainly been cases where students didn't live up to the promise that I saw in them and other cases where students far exceeded my expectations for them. Judging who will and will not succeed is quite difficult given the rather limited information that we have about a student at the time at which they're applying. This is why I avoid trying to make judgments about who should and should not pursue graduate school. Instead, I inform them of their options. I talk about what it's like to be a professor: the service and research aspects that many of them are unaware of, the amount of time spent alone typing at the computer, the lack of opportunity to determine where you will live, the kind of salary you may expect depending on what path you take, etc. And, of course, I talk about getting into graduate school, placement prospects, funding, alternatives, etc.

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  10. Anonymous

    This is from the perspective of a graduate student, but I hope it helps:
    The situation is delicate, but the right thing to do would be to tell the student that you think that he or she does not have what it takes to be a professional philosopher (of course that has to be the case-since you may be wrong in your assessment, you may consider talking to other staff in the department first). Such an honest move may be considered rude, but it will certainly be more helpful than just telling him or her that the job prospects are bad, since that will just be stating the obvious. It may also be helpful to mention the specific deficits the student has, to suggest alternatives and point out other talents the student may have in order to encourage a different career path and avoid destroying the last bit of confidence the student may have. Personally I have found honest criticism much more helpful than criticism of the form: "That was all right, but…", since the obvious reaction by most students (including me) is to just to hear the all-right part and to ignore the but part.
    However, the issue is certainly part of the bigger problem of giving students the feedback they need to make the right choices for the future. For the reverse situation may also arise. A very talented student may not have the confidence needed to embark on a graduate program, which deprives philosophy of new ideas. The problem is probably best solved, if students get regular, fair, and more detailed feedback on their progress and abilities, apart from grades. In order help honesty, this feedback should not enter into any certificate or the record of the student.

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  11. CK

    A few replies, if I may. First, given that there are just too many varied pressures contributing to grade inflation (as Princeton has conceded), the best professors can do is let students know that high marks do not necessarily equate to high ability in a particular field. None of us (alone or even collectively) is going to address the multi-headed beast of grade inflation any time soon. Besides, as you note Mark, we all tend to live in at least a little bad faith in regard to our abilities — perhaps undergraduates a little more so. Second, I think it is quite right that we shouldn't be actively discouraging students from attending graduate programs — with the caveat that they NOT pay for it themselves. On that note, by the way, the "living wage" of graduate assistantships in the U.S. is so low now that students will likely collect at least some debt, no matter what; this should give all students pause. In any case, maybe what we should do is present the facts, as Douglas says, and allow the student to make the best informed decision without much meddling from us. I think it is very important to highlight how generally miserable the job market is, what sub-fields tend to have more job openings than others, the effect of school rank on placement, etc. — many points already cited by Douglas. I quite agree with Kerry, too, that maybe we should have students speak to someone for whom the direction of graduate school turned out not as he or she expected. This is one of those situations where narratives are far more powerful (and informative) than mere data alone.

    Reply
  12. anonymous

    Thanks, all. I am the original poster. My motivation for asking is that, as a young faculty person, I am trying to figure out how to handle such situations with the kind of care and respect my students deserve. I do not believe that we should tell our students not to pursue their interests, nor that I am necessarily in a better position to know what will be good for each individual. I prefer not to take the approach of telling all students that they should avoid graduate study. However, honest conversations about graduate school are difficult and I am hopeful that more senior faculty can offer insight.

    Reply
  13. FGH

    I agree with the graduate student above who says faculty should "stop giving the As or A+s". I am faculty member with a comfortable career at a state college (somewhere) that is principally concerned with undergraduate teaching. I love my job. I am glad no one discouraged me from pursuing a career in philosophy.
    But I routinely see faculty members give high grades to students and then express reservations about the students' abilities (usually not to the student). Faculty members need to take some responsibility. And when you have been giving high grades to a student, then support them when they decide to apply to graduate school. Has anyone heard of bad faith before?!
    Of course we need to be realistic. After visiting the Gourmet Report students inevitably say "I am going to go to NYU". That is when you rein their expectations in. An A does not convert to admission to NYU.

    Reply
  14. KM

    As a professor at an undergraduate-only institution, I try to give my students interested in graduate school a taste of what that experience might be like (take them to talks at nearby graduate institutions, give them graduate-level assignments, describe what graduate seminars are like, what writing a dissertation is like, what getting a job in academia is like, etc.) I try to understand WHY they want to go to graduate school in philosophy; as a result, I can better evaluate whether or not the experiences they are hoping for are the kind of experiences likely to occur in graduate school, or if some other path might better help them achieve what they really want to achieve through philosophical inquiry.

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  15. ABD

    Tricky. I was dissuaded multiple times in more or less subtle ways from pursuing a career in philosophy. I am now finishing up my PhD at an excellent Leiterrific school and going on the market with multiple publications. The dissuasion made me work even harder to be a better philosopher. I overcame a lot. I worry that paternalistic dissuasion can keep many promising students out of the profession (some of whom come from minority racial, regional, political, and religious backgrounds, which we need represented in the profession). On the other hand, it is indeed true that some students would be better served not going to grad school in philosophy. But the default, I think, should be for a faculty member to be a positive, honest, upbeat, and encouraging presence in a student's life. Follow your dreams and all that. They get plenty of paternalistic advice elsewhere.

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  16. Geoff

    I am a junior faculty member at a department with a well regarded terminal MA program. The first thing I want to say is to Will, above, seconding what Brian Leiter wrote in his comment: a lot would depend on the specifics of your application but you definitely fit the mold of someone who could get into a good MA program and get funding in the form of a graduate assistantship. I can think of several people who have been very successful in our program (i.e., been admitted, gotten funding, completed the MA, and gone on to good doctoral programs) without much undergraduate background in philosophy. (It's usually important for us to see *some* background, partly because sometimes people have very wrong ideas about the nature of academic philosophy, but it sounds like you're getting that now.) If you're serious about it, go here and then visit the web sites of all the programs listed: http://www.philosophicalgourmet.com/maprog.asp

    The second thing is in response to the original poster. Lots of good things have been said. Though I'm not a senior person, I now have a fair amount of experience advising both undergraduates and MA students who want to go on to doctoral programs, so I've given a lot of thought to the very issue you raise and been advised by people with a lot more experience than I have. Here are my three policies:

    (a) present the facts about the job market and make sure the student understands them (e.g., if someone says "If I don't get a job at a research university, I'll just teach at community college" then they haven't understood the facts);

    (b) give the student my honest assessment of what I think their chances are of getting into a good graduate program, with the caveat that I'm just one person who isn't in a position to make this judgment with any certainty (this can sometimes mean saying that if I were to write them a recommendation letter, it wouldn't be very strong);

    (c) like ABD above says, refrain from any overly paternalistic advice (e.g., "just don't go"). It's not my life.

    With respect to (c) especially it's important to keep in mind that the job market for recent graduates of non-elite schools is *horrible* right now. It's not at all clear that someone who spends the next five or six years studying philosophy on a stipend and then has to find a non-academic job is going to be any worse off in the long run than somebody who tries to break into the working world right now.

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  17. Matt Hernandez (UG)

    I'm an undergraduate at a ug only state school who plans on pursuing graduate school. I'm going to agree that trying to steer away from grade inflation is a good way to go about doing this for two reasons. One, it does not build up an ego, and keeps everything in perspective. Two, in lines with what ABD said, being dissuaded in this manner might make the student work harder and get them up to the quality they need for graduate school. This would seem to be almost a litmus test for students wanting to pursue grad work. If a student likes the idea of grad school but may not have the abilities or work ethic and gets low grades, they might realize that maybe it's not for them. Whereas, a similar student who gets low grades might take that as a challenge and start working harder, so that she may be competitive.

    I know what I've appreciated most, talking as an undergrad, is honesty from my professors. Some professors have recognized that I could be a good candidate for grad school and brought up the idea of applying, while simultaneously telling me about the competitiveness, the job market, and the cost. One professor specifically set up goal posts, getting good grades, then getting into a small ug phil conference to see what that was like, then doing the honors requirements, and finally whether or not I could get funding. This last point was echoed by all of my professors, if you can't get in with funding, then you probably shouldn't go. Furthermore, when a professor who initially talked hesitantly with you about grad school starts saying that s/he knows you'll get into a good program, is the most encouraging part of the whole process. For me, it makes me worke harder so as to not disappoint.

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  18. Max Ferdinand

    After suffering for several years on the job market from a mid-range Leiter school, I have yet to understand how we can honestly say going to graduate school does not involve the exploitation of graduate students. We routinely applaud ourselves for preserving philosophy, but even the top Leiter schools and non-Leiter ones, all take in graduate students, have them TA a course (maybe many), and this frees up the time for graduate faculty to do some research. Even at top programs, some students exist under a fellowship to the point that we did not have to teach only to find that sometimes I get beat by the non-Leiterite teaching-heavy PhD.

    It would seem that not all experiences of the job market are equal, and yet every single graduate department in this country is perpetuating the myth that sending students to graduate school is permissible when in fact we produce more suffering for those few elite professors exploiting the class of graduate student workers. You can always flush them out of your department and get new naive grad students to TA your 300 Intro to ethics course at UC Somewhere (even worse for terminal MA programs). For those lucky enough to be in a research graduate position, they are rare, well-networked, and represent the aristocracy of our profession. The 4-year teaching professionals are complicit Lords, and all of you need a good dose of Marxist labor theory before you even respond in kind to this post.

    If I were to anticipate the logical objection, the acceptance and preservation of philosophy as a cultural good might be the first response, and the second is that there is no exploitation in graduate school, only mentorship. To the first, I would respond that no cultural good should come at the back of exploiting workers and while not a knockdown argument, this intuition might find purchase amongst those of whom are sensitive to moral considerations.

    The second is more innocuous. A whole bunch of you will say that nobody is forcing students into graduate school and that they are free to decide for themselves. Of course, philosophers raised in a neoliberal order might say this without much thought. Most plausibly, the usual response is that somebody who makes these claims has never had to be on the job market for some time. Secondly, the mentorship response is only seen from the individual to teacher, rarely do professors at institutions take stock about the collective suffering of graduate students as underemployed wage slaves of their aristocratic mentors. The simple fact that you desire to see your graduate student as a person and not as a laborer only intensifies the illusion that the collective practices of philosophy oppress the very people they are trying to make better.

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  19. Geoff

    Also, again seconding what ABD says and modestly disagreeing with anon12:08 above (though the disagreement may be superficial, I don't know): I *never* tell someone that I do or don't think he or she "has what it takes". I am very skeptical that there is any such property, and even if there is there are many reasons to doubt that we have the ability to discern it in others. I always focus that part of the discussion on the student's work (including class participation), grades, etc. A pattern of producing work that is anything less than outstanding is good evidence that the student won't get into a strong graduate program. We don't need to make the issue about some magic secret juice that some people have and others don't.

    Reply
  20. ms

    As a grad student, I think the main thing to do is inform students of the field (job prospects, climate, what kind of work one will do, etc). A former professor, due to concerns about job prospects, told me only to pursue philosophy if it's the only thing I can imagine being happy doing. This caused me to do research online to find out about the profession well before applying. Many students who arrived the same year at the program did not know what they were getting into and that makes a difference. Finding out about the field after arriving at a grad program is too late.

    I don't care for the suggestion to lower someone's grade. It seems unfair to the student especially when that person's peers in other disciplines will look comparatively better on paper given they received the standard grade inflation the philosophy student didn't. (Many employers are interested in one's grades, and so, this does matter.)

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  21. Anonymous graduate student

    The anti-paternalists here are giving juniors in college far too much credit.

    1. Juniors in college can't reliably predict what they'll want out of life in their late 20s/early 30s.
    2. If 1, then they shouldn't be making choices in their early 20s that will massively constrain the options available to them in their late 20s/early 30s.
    3. So, juniors in college shouldn't be making choices in their early 20s that will massively constrain the options available to them in their late 20s/early 30s.
    4. If 3, then faculty members should dissuade them from making choices in their early 20s that will massively constrain the options available to them in their late 20s/early 30s.
    5. So, faculty members should dissuade juniors in college from making choices in their early 20s that will massively constrain the options available to them in their late 20s/early 30s.

    I guess I could see someone complaining that 4 is too strong. In that case change it to "faculty members should encourage juniors in college to postpone making a choice like graduate school" or something like this.

    What say you, anti-paternalists? Do you not remember being an arrogant and careless early 20 something?

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  22. Anon Grad Student

    It seems obvious to me that there are kind but firm ways to tell someone who doesn't "have what it takes" (or produce work of high enough quality, or whatever) that they shouldn't apply to grad school. From my own experience (and that of people I know), what makes the difference is being able to do that in a non-sugarcoated way — sometimes "kindness" can be difficult when it requires delivering bad news, but it's much better to do that than to let someone waste so much time and effort and money on grad school applications (and perhaps several years at a sub-par program). When I went to apply to grad programs, I received cautious support and some state-of-the-profession talks, which I took to be a good sign (and still do) — if someone had told me "Look, you're smart but I don't think you can hack it in grad school" in a sympathetic but plainspoken way, I think I would have been dissuaded (and I know several people who were).

    I thought the trickier issue brought up in the OP was what to tell students who *might* "have what it takes" in terms of academic skill, but for whom (for one reason or another) grad school seems like not the right path. But even in those cases, you must have some reason to think grad school is not appropriate for them (and perhaps some other career path is) — I'm not sure what would be wrong with just delivering *that* news in a similarly frank way, though. If such a frank discussion is not persuasive, then the problem is that the person you're talking to is stubborn, and I'm not sure what can be done about that.

    Finally, I would discourage the "pursue it if it's the only thing that will make you happy" line. First of all, that is not good advice. If philosophy is really the only thing that you can possibly imagine yourself ever doing, and you will just die a thousand deaths if you cannot fulfill your sole purpose in life of becoming a professional philosopher… that seems like not a good state of affairs for you. Secondly, that line will be *especially encouraging* to exactly the kind of students who are difficult to dissuade in the first place — people with idealistic, incorrect pictures of what grad school and the profession is like, and who are already convinced that becoming a philosopher is the only way to express their special-snowflake selves, or whatever. It'll sound like a challenge to their "passion." Finally, it might end up actually discouraging those people who would be perfectly fine in grad school and who are reasonable and well-rounded enough to be able to picture themselves doing a variety of things with their lives. The "If it doesn't end up working out, would you regret having done it?" line is much better, in that it seems to track something that's actually directly related to whether or not one should go to grad school, so I'd just go with that.

    Full Disclosure: I am currently a second-year PhD student (with an MA already) at a solid Leiter-ranked department who is quite happy with my current situation and the decisions that led to it.

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  23. ABD Too

    I want to tie together the excellent suggestion of not passing out high grades like hot cakes, and ABD's story about being dissuaded, and working hard.

    Students should be under the impression that they need to do something special to be good enough for grad school, over and above grades. If they want to go, then they need to do that "over and above" before they get to grad school.

    So, on top of the good suggestions, such as talking about the poor market, or the need to be motivated by the intrinsic value of grad school even if no job is forthcoming (as Tim Maudlin suggested), tell them to start the hardwork NOW. They have a paper they like? Polish it, and submit it to a conference. Ask them to write you more stuff (if you are willing to read it). What are their interests? They better know now. Wanna do Ancient? Start studying Greek. Language? Try formal semantics.

    My hunch is that only some students will be up to the task of doing the extra hard work. So, are not dissuading, so much as making clear they have mountains to climb now, before they even get in. They are free to do all of that extra hard work, and you can tell them even after they do all of that, then maybe that might be enough. But there is still no guarantee.

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  24. Anon Grad Student

    P.S. Perhaps this is obvious, but Max F's comment surely does not reflect the experiences of grad students in general, even those of us who have already had "a good dose of Marxist labor theory." I agree with the general sentiment that the norm for a "standard" grad student funding package is probably too low, but the professoriate is surely not the group to whom we should direct our ire here. Also, you know, some of us actually like TAing.

    Reply
  25. Nate

    The suggestion not to give A's and A+'s to students who you don't think should be professional philosophers is objectionable for many reasons, some of which have already been discussed here. I'd like also to mention that there's only a loose correlation, in my experience, between the students who get the highest grades in undergrad courses and those who are most likely to do professional-quality work in philosophy.

    This is not only a matter of experience but, I think, exactly what one would expect. The players with the best statistics in baseball's minor leagues are rarely those with the best chances of becoming great professionals. I am told that those young adults selected to top training programs in dance are not simply those young adults who give the best dance performances. And so on for every other discipline with which I'm familiar–we would need some argument even to expect that philosophy would be different.

    Moreover, the goals of undergrad philosophy courses are not even the same as the goals of a professional philosopher. Undergrad work often tests one's basic critical thinking skills, whether one has read a text carefully, whether one can analyze an argument and describe its mechanics, etc. Although professional work involves all of these, it involves many other skills also (often, working knowledge of science or math or ancient Greek; advanced skill at defining vocabulary in a way that maximally conduces to philosophical clarity; etc.). Many of the most active research areas in philosophy are not even introduced to many undergrad majors.

    So on top of all the other reasons not to withhold A's and A+'s from students you don't think ought to go to grad school, there's also the fact that we shouldn't expect top grades and (the very top end of) philosophical promise to track each other all that closely. Of course, explaining this fact to students is diplomatically tricky, but I promise it can be done, and that conversation is no more difficult than any number of others a teacher of philosophy is likely to face.

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  26. Anonymous grad student

    Anonymous grad student here to defend being judicious about issuing grades.

    "Moreover, the goals of undergrad philosophy courses are not even the same as the goals of a professional philosopher. Undergrad work often tests one's basic critical thinking skills, whether one has read a text carefully, whether one can analyze an argument and describe its mechanics, etc. … Many of the most active research areas in philosophy are not even introduced to many undergrad majors."

    This is certainly true of many courses offered at many different undergraduate institutions. But it's also _not_ true of many courses offered at many different undergraduate institutions, which is why I qualified my claim above. Many undergraduate philosophy programs will offer so-called 'advanced undergraduate seminars' – many of which students have to earn their way into with high marks in other advanced courses. Such courses by no means merely test "one's basic critical thinking skills" and often cover the very narrow and cutting edge research topics of some faculty member or another. It's in these kinds of courses where faculty members should be extremely cautious about handing out As, because As very strongly _suggest to students_ that they could succeed in graduate school if they could succeed in graduate school-like seminars.

    I just don't see what's objectionable about being conservative in handing out As in such courses, especially if the professor is up front about it on the first day of classes. As an undergraduate, I had several professors announce that it had been years since they gave someone an A in advanced undergraduate course X. Students appreciated this.

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  27. Anon Grad

    It would benefit all prospective students if they have a realistic view of the amount of work required to be successful in academic philosophy.

    After informing my undergraduate professors of my intent to pursue graduate school, they made it clear that while a bright student can easily turn around an "A" paper, it is much more difficult to write a really good philosophy paper. One professor took an "A" paper of mine–which was to serve as my writing sample–and put it through the wringer. He found flaws and ambiguities in every paragraph, and he worked through multiple drafts sentence-by-sentence. I ended up working on this paper for 10 months. Prior to that, the longest I had ever worked on a philosophy paper was about 3 days.

    This experience allowed me to make a better-informed decision about whether to pursue academic philosophy.

    —

    On a somewhat related note: a lot of students are in the opposite position than the one described in the original post (i.e., they would benefit from studying philosophy in graduate school, but have never considered it). Many students–especially first-generation college students–do not know that there is funding out there, and they have never been encouraged to pursue graduate school.

    It was my philosophy professors who first recommended that I look into graduate schools: prior to then I had never considered it. They were also the first to inform me that funding exists for this purpose, and I was absolutely shocked. I am grateful that they went out of their way to do this.

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  28. Geoff

    Anonymous 10/25 8:52, I think you're giving faculty members too much credit. Maybe college juniors generally can't predict what they'll want out of life in their early 30s. But it's much more clearly true that *I* can't predict what they'll want out of life in their early 30s, much less whether, having gone to graduate school in philosophy, they'll be in a position to get it. I mean I can't even predict what *I'll* want out of life in ten years. Anyway I don't think I shouldn't dissuade people from going to graduate school — an honest explanation of the costs and risks involved together with a frank assessment of the student's work most often has just that effect. What I think I shouldn't do is take further measures when the facts themselves don't dissuade.

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  29. D Gunderson

    You have an obligation to tell every undergraduate who wishes to pursue philosophy at the graduate level to not do so if it involves their going into debt or causing undo financial hardship on themselves or their family members.

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  30. recent M.A recipient/Adjucnt

    I wish that teaching Philosophy to students was more widely appreciated. I got an M.A. and realized that I probably couldn't get into a top tier institution. I am adjuncting now at a few community colleges and absolutely love it. I am teaching the basic skills that I believe humans should have to successfully live in the world. I wish that I got paid a living wage. I wish that the majority of academia was focused of teaching. In grad school I learned how to be an academic philosopher. As and adjunct I have learned how to teach, and that academic philosophers don't tend to worry about the masses as much as the 'select' few. I worry about a system that leaves large numbers of its most adamant followers shivering in the cold.

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  31. Nate

    Anon 11:41–

    I do agree that there are some advanced undergraduate courses in which the work in some sense approximates to professional research. Of course one's performance in these courses is valuable evidence for predicting whether one will succeed in grad school. They will generally not, however, require one to read the literature as fully, expand upon one's argument as carefully or in as much detail, etc. Moreover, the social and political pressures on undergrads and on grad students are different.

    Again, there are the other reasons I mentioned–why would we think that students best meeting a set of standards as 20-year-olds are going to be the best at meeting those standards (to say nothing of _different_ standards) after five or six years of intensive study? Can you name any subject or skill or discipline in which such predictions are made that way (by the people best at making those predictions)?

    I don't mean to suggest that grades aren't a valuable indicator in this situation. But I continue to be quite sure that the standards for getting an A in an undergrad course are not the same as the standards by which to judge whether one will go on to do high-quality professional work. Radically "deflating" grades does not address this basic issue (though I do think it helps in other respects).

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  32. Graddaddy

    The tone of many comments, and, in general, the "always tell students never to go to grad school line," is annoying. I also think there's a decent case for "is stupid," too, but let me build to that. I find it annoying because these comments would advocate discouraging people like me and many of the people I know and respect most (in a variety of good programs—faculty members and students) from pursuing this career.

    A 22 year old is not a 12 year old. They know how to use "the google." They know how to find statistics online. They should even know in advance how a particular type of program might help or hurt them on the job market. If they ask, one should help them find this info so they can "get real." I particularly like the idea of putting anyone considering the path in touch with people where things didn't work out. "Anyone," by the way, should your darling kid geniuses who wrote their term paper on some boring aspect of your research program and you "expect to do well."

    But "getting real" shouldn't mean telling people "you're not good enough" in so many words—even sugarcoated, the lack of epistemic humility manifested in such suggestions is misleading and probably stupid advice in all but the most obvious cases (and, in the obvious cases, we wouldn't need to have a discussion on the matter). "Getting real" should mean, however—this is hard work, this is a real job, and you can expect to experience many ups and downs in choosing this endeavor just as you can expect in all things.

    BL COMMENT: I'll just say that I agree with this.

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  33. Michael B

    "an honest explanation of the costs and risks involved together with a frank assessment of the student's work most often has just that effect" – agreed.

    Since we're in the business of examining 'big' questions by, ultimately, writing essays about them, ask them to write you a paper on the rationality of going to graduate school in philosophy. If they're of graduate calibre they'll do thorough research (appropriate to that level), consider vastly more than just economic or existential factors on their own, and hopefully construct a reasoned argument.

    Since such cool analyses of weighty topics are the norm throughout undergraduate education in philosophy, the hardest thing for this should be getting lots of useful data on relevant considerations.

    Critique it as you would any other essay.

    Their conclusion, if they're a) thorough, b) honest, and c) have good self awareness, will answer the question of, 'Should *I* go to graduate school?', and have as much evidence, thought and argument behind it as one can hope for. All without you having to shatter someone's confidence or sugar coat the truth.

    That, and direct them to read up on superiority bias.

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  34. Non-philosophy undergraduate

    I wonder if Anonymous graduate student's argument in 21 proves too much.

    If we accept premise 2, then do we not have to question many of the decisions that Americans make in their early twenties? For one thing, I imagine choosing to go to graduate or professional school to study any subject will limit one's options just as well as going to graduate school to study philosophy would. Should juniors in college be dissuaded from going to law or medical school? Even choosing a major as an undergraduate has implications regarding one's future.

    Plus, if one is not justified in making important life decisions as a junior in college, then, a fortiori, decisions commonly made as a teenager–choosing to go to a particular college, to not to go to college at all, to join the military, to get married, to have a child, etc.–should be postponed. It seems strange to be uniquely concerned about young people deciding to be philosophers when much more important life decisions are routinely made during and before college, though it is obviously not a contradiction to say that the important life decisions cataloged above should be delayed till one is thirty years old or whenever.

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  35. Jake

    No offence my friend, but in what alternate universe can someone in a major Canadian city (where many of our Ph.D. Programs are) live on $20000 per year? Rent alone averages around $1000 per month, that leaves you $8000 to cover, presumably, tuition, books, food, transportation living expenses. Not feasible, you'll still end up taking out a mortgage-sized loan to survive, unless you're supported by well to do parents.

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  36. Junior faculty at State U.

    Said to an academically poor student who has come to talk about graduate school: "Okay. The first thing that you need to do is work hard to earn A's and B's in your upper-level philosophy classes."
    Student: "Oh. Well, never mind then."
    I have had this same conversation with two students, and a longer version of it with more. I've been surprised by how many students, when given a game plan for preparing for graduate school, decide on their own that graduate school is not a good fit for them.

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  37. anon ex-adjunct

    $1000 per month will still get you a nice 1-bedroom apartment in most Canadian cities. But there's no need for that. Rent a basement suite, and don't insist on living in (or near), say, The Annex. There's usually no need to buy books. Get the articles and books you need through your library (in electronic or printed format). Buy cheap food and alcohol. Speaking anecdotally, I lived on about $20,000 per year as a PhD student (though along the way I did get some small bursaries and scholarships in addition to the funding from my department), and so did many of my friends. We didn't, as far as I know, live in an 'alternate universe'. (This was in the early 2000s.)

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  38. Jeff Fedorkiw

    While they vast majority of faculty members range from fine to brilliant, every once in a while I come across one where I think, "gee, I never would've thought this person would be a successful academic philosopher, but here they are in front of the class, talking." How can I do more to dissuade these people from continuing on in the profession?

    But seriously, anyone who, at any point, thought that studying philosophy is a good way to get a job, raise your hand. The study of philosophy trains rationality, and it's already irrational to bank on the career prospects of philosophy. On top of that, you have all the things that keep people from successfully completing their PhDs: the loneliness, the depression, the anxiety, the panic attacks, imposter syndrome, the belief that you have to live like a Franciscan monk, the institutional sexism and privilege… But no, the concern is how can you do _more_ to dissuade people from studying philosophy.

    Now, it's nice to hear what professors have to say, even if it's critical (that's what academia is about right?). But frankly, unless you're on the admissions committee of a school I applied to, you're opinion doesn't matter. Why don't you just make sure your own department is open and honest about things like it's placement record and admissions policies? There's plenty of information on the internet, such as the gourmet report and anecdotal stories on the philosophy smoker, which helps people piece together what sort of career path they can expect from a successful PhD at school X.

    There's something bizarre about the professed desire of people who have made it in the profession to dissuade others from following their path. As fascinating as your research is, I'm willing to bet that it doesn't create surplus value for the military industrial complex, and thus, the fact that you get paid to do it relies, at bottom, on people signing up as philosophy majors. Maybe you should be persuading more people to continue on in philosophy, so there's more jobs.

    In my less sane moments, I find myself scouring PhD program websites and thinking about what term paper I can polish up as a writing sample. But for the most part, I've accepted that I won't be going further than an M.A., so you can take this as the opinion of one person for whom things didn't work out. Personally, I think I got a great education in my M.A.. I think I learned a lot of skills that should be economically valuable in the workforce. In the two years since finishing, I haven't been able to convince a single employer of that. Well, fine, society values investment bankers very highly even when they screw up so badly as to bring the empire to the brink of collapse, so I won't take it personally. It's frustrating that all my education hasn't improved my job prospects at all, but no, I certainly hold no grudges to anyone who encouraged me to continue on in philosophy, studying philosophy was great. I didn't expect it to get me a job, that's why a learned two trades before even going to university.

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