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Time off between undergraduate and graduate school?

Brian Leiter

A recent college graduate writes with a question that often arises; he is currently teaching English overseas, and writes:

I wanted to get some teaching experience under my belt because I definitely enjoy teaching, and I would also like to read read read.

The thing is I am starting to think it may create some kind of disadvantage for me if in a couple of years I do finally decide to attend graduate school. I'd like your thoughts on whether waiting a few years between getting a BA and a A/Phd could be problematic. What immediately comes to mind is that from the point of view of my professors, I will have dropped off the grid for a while only to appear suddenly asking for letters of recommendation. I can see that being a bit awkward and producing substandard letters.

My own sense is that time away from philosophy often does count against applicants (esp. to PhD program, maybe less so to MA programs), but that if one is going to take a year or two off, it is particularly important to stay current with your potential recommenders (update them on your plans, give them an estimated timetable for when you might need their support) and also try to stay engaged with philosophy, through reading, auditing classes, etc.  Thoughts from readers?  Reactions from faculty who have recently done PhD or MA admissions would be particularly helpful.

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48 responses to “Time off between undergraduate and graduate school?”

  1. JN

    Related to this topic, I am curious if time away is still counted as a mark against the student if the student spent that time at a law school.

    BL COMMENT: As long as students continue with some philosophy in the 2nd and 3rd year (which can be done at many law schools), it's usually not an issue. I've known a number of students who have done this, and gone on to strong PhD programs.

    Reply
  2. Anon. Grad Student

    I can't speak to how time off is viewed with admissions committees, but I can say that I highly recommend time "off" (read: time working a 9-5 of some kind) for practical reasons. I'd even go so far as to suggest that admissions committees weigh these practical reasons against the "not serious enough" or "not committed enough" signal that time away might send (if they don't already).

    First, it's much easier to treat grad school like your job (which it is) if you don't have to learn what it is to have a job in general at the same time you're learning how to be a professional philosopher specifically; the added maturity and professionalism goes a long way.

    Second, grad school in Philosophy is an occasionally soul-crushing experience. A lot of your self-worth is tied up in the quality of your work, and your work simply isn't very good yet (for good reason: you're still very early in your career!), and that's a recipe for some nights of serious self-doubt about whether you've chosen the right path. Having worked a 9-5 can lend some helpful perspective as to just how great of a job grad school is by comparison, how the expectations really aren't all that unreasonable, and how much you really would rather be doing philosophy than what you used to do. This helps tamp down the quitsies, and the sooner you squash that the sooner you can get back to being productive.

    I'm not sure how closely those two reasons map onto jobs like teaching ESL, but with years of funding for graduate students getting increasingly more limited, I think in any case it's not a bad idea to do some of your growing up professionally before starting the clock.

    Reply
  3. Anon

    I am in the UK and one of my professors told me that he generally recommends students to take a year or two away from academia between undergrad and PhD. So presumably in his books it's no disadvantage at all.

    Reply
  4. Eddy Nahmias

    I certainly don't hold it against an undergrad applying to grad school if s/he took some time off! I write from an MA program, but I sincerely hope no one at any program would hold it against a student. In fact, we should encourage it. Go do something hard (like teaching; I taught high school for two years), so that grad school feels like a breath of fresh air, rather than just more of the same-old, and so that you come to grad school as you should–trained to work hard (and regular hours) at it like a job. Or do something to help the world. Or do something fun. Just try to keep up with your philosophical reading (and even writing). And certainly keep up with your professors, so they both remember you for their letters and know that you are just living outside philosophy for a little while but intend to apply within a year (or two or three).

    If anyone can make a cogent argument for why taking some time between undergrad and grad should be held against an applicant, let's hear it. I, for one, can't imagine…

    Reply
  5. Rachel McKinnon

    I took two years off between my (one year) MA and my PhD. I played professional poker full time and golfed pretty much every day. I did a little reading during that time, but not a lot.

    It didn't affect me one bit.

    I got in with full funding, graduated with publications in <4 years, and landed a TT job.

    It gave me time to realize that philosophy is exactly what I wanted to do for a career. It gave me a chance to miss it, so when I was working through my PhD I never once came close to burning out. I think a year off (or even two) is actually a good idea. It's the best time of one's (presumably) young career to do it.

    Reply
  6. Rachel McKinnon

    (Brian, if you want to tack this onto my previous post, I'd appreciate it)

    I explained to my MA advisor and letter writers that I was deciding not to accept the PhD program offers. They seemed eventually to understand. Just over a year later, when I asked for new letters of recommendation, I made sure to put my request in the context of having taken time off, because taking time off often (incorrectly) implicitly or explicitly communicates to people that a student isn't "serious." So this might make them less likely to write a student a good letter. But in framing my request, I explained why I took the break, what it did for me, and why I really wanted to pursue philosophy as a career. One was even quite explicit about bringing up my break as a worry he had in writing me a letter: but I assuaged the worry, and he wrote me a letter.

    Reply
  7. Michael Weber

    In my experience, taking time away — as long as it is not too long — does not count against an applicant (to Ph.d or M.A. programs). Indeed, sometimes it is looked upon favorably, as students who take time off before starting graduate school often perform better and are more likely to complete the degree. That is my experience, at least. Why might this be so? At least two reasons: 1) Greater maturity; 2) More likely to be certain of professional goals, and what it will take to achieve them. Of course it depends, to some extent, on what the person does in between undergrad and starting graduate school. I suspect that admissions committees would look favorably on someone who spent time in law school, or some other educational or cultural endeavor, and unfavorably on some who was partying in Ibiza for two years.

    Reply
  8. Mark

    I strongly recommend taking time off after undergraduate years, if only because you will likely get a better sense of whether a PhD is really the path you want to pursue. When you are immersed in philosophy as an undergraduate and have constant contact with professors, other philosophy students, and constant rich philosophical discussions, it can be extremely difficult to imagine taking any other path. But there ARE many other paths that may not yet seem like viable options. Some of these paths might have better job prospects, stability, and a greater potential for happiness.

    This was certainly the case for me. I excelled in philosophy as a an undergrad, had great relationships with my professors, hung out almost exclusively with other philosophy majors, read nothing but philosophy, and planned on starting graduate school. My last two years of undergrad I took almost nothing but philosophy courses, thinking that a PhD and eventual research and teaching was the only path for me, because I just couldn't imagine anything else. I went to the Rutgers Summer Institute for Diversity in Philosophy (an amazing program) and that just cemented even more that a PhD and a tenured spot was going to be my path. My entire life at that time was philosophy, how could I imagine anything else?

    But at the wise suggestion of my wife, I took several years off after undergrad and worked as a library assistant as a university. The job was still in academia, but it was distant enough from philosophy that I was able to get a glimpse of another life. Eight years later, I'm now a librarian at a large research university and I'm thrilled with it. Those years gave me clarity about what I really liked about philosophy and what I didn't. I constantly think about how good a decision it was to take time off, because philosophy, despite being my world for several years in my early twenties, just ultimately wasn't right for me. I loved it but I realized I wasn't cut out for it — and time off helped me realize that without my having to pour a ton of time, effort, and resources into potentially starting and failing in a PhD program.

    That said, Brian's advice to maintain contact and remain current with your potential recommenders is good advice if you ultimately do decide you can't live without a PhD. I did this and I am grateful for those contacts even if I never did need the recommendations.

    Reply
  9. PLH

    I took six years off between undergrad and graduate school, during which time I more than fell of the map, philosophically speaking. Arranging for letters was a farce (though my former professors were as nice as they could be about it). I can't say it didn't count against me, but I did get into a strong PhD program and went on to get a TT job in philosophy. And I know a number of others who have had similar gaps. I report this so that readers who have taken time off do not feel that they have no chance at success in applying to a PhD program. Better work hard on that writing sample though!

    That said, BL's advice is certainly good IF you know you will eventually apply to a PhD program.

    Reply
  10. Tamler Sommers

    My story is identical to PLH's but with 8 years instead of 6 and letters that were a mockery of a sham of a travesty of a farce. Like most people on this thread, I strongly recommend taking time off. From my experience, those students who have spent some time out of school are less likely to take the grad school experience for granted. They feel less entitled and more ready to make philosophy a career. And some life experience can make one a better philosopher as well. Like Eddy, I can't imagine a good argument for holding time away against a student…

    Reply
  11. Brian Leiter

    I just want to emphasize that I'm not sure how representative the opinions so far are–maybe things have changed a lot in the last 10-15 years, and I'm behind the curvie. I am glad to hear of students who took time away and successfully returned. The usual reason for skepticism about such students is that they may not be as serious about philosophy, or they wouldn't have stepped away from it. And there is the additional worry that the time away means they won't hit the ground running when they return. Are those "good" arguments? Probably in some cases, but whether they're good or not, I have certainly heard them embraced by other philosophers.

    Reply
  12. Becko Copenhaver

    I hope that the comments thus far are representative and that things have changed in the last 10 – 15 years. I'm at an undergraduate institution, so my perspective is from the other side. Often the students who want to go to graduate school and who have a very good chance of getting into graduate school want to take one or two years off. At the very least, they want to focus on their coursework senior year rather than spend the Fall creating their applications and Spring waiting in a daze of anticipation/dread. My students are mature enough to know that they would do better in graduate school with a few more years of maturity under their belts – for all the reasons Anon. Grad Student said.

    In short, far from showing that my students aren't serious, their wish to take time off is about wanting to take graduate school (and their senior undergraduate year) seriously. If admissions committees are still interpreting time off as a sign of not being serious, I would really like to hear about that. Personally, I find that attitude odd and I worry that it expresses some of the aggressive and hyper-competitive stance that we are trying to move away from as a discipline.

    But what I really need is the truth. I still tell my students that taking time off damages their chances. I've begun to suspect that is not true and I'd love change my advice.

    Reply
  13. Another anon. grad student

    I took the better part of a year off from studying between honours (on the Australasian system, honours is a year of research and dissertation production) and PhD, saved money, and did a big tour of Europe. However, I TA'd for my undergrad institution for two semesters during that year off, which meant I was able to constantly speak with the faculty and maintain relationships. So, my letters of recommendation were probably fairly accurate of my performance as an undergrad (insofar as those letters have a benchmark for accuracy). The TAing experience itself was also very helpful.

    I'd highly recommend doing the same or similar (especially if you can land a TAing gig). I started my PhD when I came back from Europe, having been away from philosophy for long enough to miss it and appreciate it (as posters have noted above). I think I would have burnt out had I not taken an extended stretch outside of academic research. It was also helpful in terms of reading philosophy in a leisurely manner during that year off to really hone in on what specific topics interested me. That is, I think the break allowed me to put together a stronger and more focused research proposal for applying to programs.

    So I guess the path I followed is a version of the one BL mentions in the original post. It's worked well for me.

    Reply
  14. Tim O'Keefe

    We have lots of applicants to our MA program who are a few years out from their BA, and I've never held it against them. As far as I can tell, nobody else does either. For the reasons given above, I think that it's often a good idea to have time off between undergraduate and graduate study. I spent a year in a volunteer program, and besides finding the work itself rewarding, I was a lot more enthusiastic about being back in an academic environment after the time away from it.

    Reply
  15. JAleksander

    Like Copenhaver, I also work in an undergrad context (not as prestigious as Copenhaver's, but we have been basically successful over the last five years in getting students into MA and PhD programs that are good fits for them). From my experience there's another perspective here that is worth mentioning, which is that the tactical question of whether taking time off is harmful to the MA/PhD admissions process is entirely subordinate to the question of the possible benefits to the person of doing so.

    In a way, the rough consensus in the prior posts is that there are often good reasons to take time off AND that it probably doesn't hurt the admissions process. But, from a slightly different perspective, I think it might be better to reframe the issue as two separate questions that may have some bearing on each other, but with the second being subordinate to the first in importance.

    The first and more important question is whether and why it might be to the student's advantage to time off before pursuing an advanced degree. There are lots of good reasons (many offered above), though there are some students for whom going straight into graduate school is also a good option (for instance, I worked 52 hours per week during the majority of my undergraduate years, was under-stimulated by my undergraduate academic environment, and was craving the opportunity to do nothing but academic philosophy…). Slightly more of my own students tend to be in the former category than the latter category. And within these categories, there are gradations–there are some students I think should absolutely take time off, and there are some that I think might benefit from it but would be OK without it. A student at one end of this category is likely not to be doing themselves any favors at all by going into a graduate program before getting other things in order that would allow her/him to get the most out of the experience. There are fewer students who I think are absolutely ready for a PhD program, and I'd like most of my students to apply to quality MA programs no matter how enthusiastically I might support their applications to PhD programs.

    The second question ought to be entertained–at least for heuristic purposes–as an entirely separate question: how might one frame time off before applying for graduate programs? Or for that matter, how might one frame the decision NOT to take time off (which need not be stated explicitly, but is worth considering)? Based not on experience with admissions committees but, rather, with my students' application processes (successes and failures) as well as the anecdotal evidence supplied by my peers in graduate school, I think probably the rough consensus above happens to be true–time off probably isn't per se harmful to an application. And there's good sensible advice about staying in contact with potential future letter writers. But I also think the question of application tactics isn't nearly as important as the question of whether or not take the time off.

    Reply
  16. Michael B

    I had 2 years off between school and the bachelor's. I then had 2 years off between a middle-ranked UK university before going to a top-ranked UK university and department for a terminal MA program (I can only presume I had great letters, plus the economic crisis had just hit and I was waving a cheque).

    I spent 18 months doing jobs I hated and 6 months recovering from elective surgery*. I kept in touch with my letter writers and spent my evenings teaching myself (more) logic, taking mathematics courses to try and get better at reasoning, and reading very broadly around the areas I was interested in. I put all this in my application.

    The following is all anecdote and opinion.

    In the UK I think there is almost no funding for students in philosophy. Especially MAs. So I worked to save. I hope time away to save is not taken as evidence a person is not serious. To the contrary. Even if you are likely to be funded, you may wish to pay off some debt etc. Or just save so money is less of a worry in grad school. Our patron saint and martyr Socrates had rich friends to mooch off. You probably do not. You need not suffer in the gutter to prove you are serious.

    So as long as you have a plausible narrative – not excuse – to weave into your statement, I'd suggest rational, humane people would understand.

    I'd also second all the other advice so far: it allows you to see if you really miss philosophy or just the student lifestyle; it allows you to come back fresh; etc. There is something very peculiar to me about (e.g.) a 21-year-old in grad school writing a thesis on the ethics of anything, presuming to say what is or is not ok for the entire race (say), when all they've ever done is be in school in one culture and endured no major personal hardships. Maybe that's an ad hom and unfair. I don't know.

    So do a physically hard job, or a job where you get dirty, or an emotionally challenging job, or volunteer or whatever. Just push yourself outside your comfort zone with people you're not used to mixing with. And save some bread. I think, but don't know, this will make your application, grad school experience, and work, much better than otherwise.

    *The post-op pain alone, and effectively having to learn to walk again, was enough to end my love affair with Plato and his Forms, and put my interests squarely in the real world. And this, I fully admit, was a very middle-class problem (elective surgery by competent doctors and nurses) etc.

    Reply
  17. Grad Student

    For my part, I find it astonishing that this could be held against applicants. I took two years off for good reason: I needed to pay for my student loans and save some money for emergencies, furniture, etc. The last thing I needed was to show up to graduate school with no savings and leave with 30% more student debt. I will note, however, that I had only mentioned these reasons for my time off in the statement of purpose to the one university to which I was offered admission(and no complaints here, it was the university I most wanted to attend).

    Reply
  18. Eddy Nahmias

    Barring some argument to the contrary that we have yet to see, can everyone reading this thread just agree that they will not hold it against applicants if they took time off? (insert necessary qualifications) The arguments and anecdotes above certainly suggest that is the right view.

    And undergrads reading this, go do something else for a while. If you aren't excited to come back to philosophy, perhaps that's a sign. If you are, then you'll appreciate it more. (And yes, keep in touch with your profs, etc.)

    Reply
  19. Shamik Dasgupta

    It's hard to say how different admissions committees will see things, but I can add myself as one more data point of someone who took two years out of academia between undergraduate and graduate work. I spent most of the time waiting tables and going to far-flung parts of the world. Not quite as mundane as "partying in Ibiza" (as Michael Weber put it) but nor did it fill up impressive lines in my CV.

    I think the break was a great idea. It was great fun, and it gave me a chance to work out that academic philosophy was really what I wanted to do. So, when I started an MA (in London), I was much more focused than I would have been, I think. Here I'm basically just agreeing with what Rachel McKinnon said.

    So I wouldn't have the worry that Brian voiced, i.e. that taking time out is a sign that the student wouldn't "hit the road running". In my case the reverse was true. Though obviously it's hard to generalize, so if I were on an admissions committee (or writing a letter for a student) I wouldn't take it as much of a sign either way.

    It's also worth keeping in mind that taking a break before grad school is the last chance you'll have to do so, without it starting to interrupt with the standard progression through a graduate program and finding/starting a job.

    Reply
  20. bzfgt

    I "took" a year off because I didn't get into anywhere the first time. I assume it didn't hurt me because I got into three places the second time (none of which I applied to the first year). I just thought it relevant to mention that some people take time off because they don't have a choice…I spent the year taking more undergraduate courses, and the whole time I felt like I was in exile…it was good to get back on track. In other ways it was a great year though and I wouldn't want to go back and change anything, except that if I had it all to do over I'd have won the lottery at some point…now that I have a PhD my life is ruined financially, maybe permanently, but I still don't regret it.

    Reply
  21. Possible Grad Student

    I am in a situation that is very similar to that of the person from the original post. I have been advised by my letter writers, some of whom sit on my school's admissions committee, that time off will not be held against me. But I'll leave discussion of that for the professionals. It seems worth noting that anyone considering taking time off should do their best to get their application in order BEFORE they graduate. Putting together a good personal statement, getting advice on a writing sample, and receiving commitments from letter writers become significantly more difficult once you have left the university.

    Another note: In my case one of the main reasons for wanting to take time off was to erase my student debt before returning to grad school, and it strikes me that a lot of people might be in a similar situation. The idea of entering school for an extended period of time with a significant amount of debt is quite frightening. I was presented with an opportunity to pay off my debt and save a bit over a few years and this was a big part of my decision to delay grad school. I'd hope this wouldn't be held against me when I do end up applying.

    I also have a question: Obviously auditing courses and keeping up with the literature is paramount if one wants to transition successfully back into school. But, for those living outside the English speaking world this can be very difficult. Philosophy books are hard to come by and expensive to order online, unlimited access to academic journals and libraries is lost and auditing courses is out of the question. So, are there any reputable, advanced level philosophy courses that can be taken online? Most of the stuff I can find seems to be at the lower undergrad or general interest level. Is there anything that more advanced that is worth looking at.

    Reply
  22. Simon van Rysewyk

    I think it was Rorty who said that 'Philosophy is really a kind of writing'. By all means, read read read. But don't forget to write much more than you read. Every day. Start a philosophy research blog. Join discussion forums (if you haven't already). Leave comments on other research blogs. Request to join a blog as a writer. Depending on your interests in philosophy, make your writing interdisciplinary.

    Reply
  23. Anonymous post-doc

    I applied to graduate school in the early 2000s, having taken two years off from college. I took time off for two reasons.

    (1) I changed my major to philosophy relatively late in college. I didn't think that any of the papers I wrote in my junior year or before would have made strong writing samples (the good ones were too short), and there was only one professor I knew well enough to ask for a letter. I thought my application would be stronger after writing a senior thesis, both because I'd have a better writing sample and because I'd have at least one more letter.

    (2) A lot of people told me that I should not go to graduate school unless I was sure that I couldn't be happy doing anything else. As a college senior, I wasn't sure of this, but I also wasn't sure that I could be happy doing something else. I decided to try doing something else for two years to make a better-informed decision.

    I was admitted to one Ph.D. program, which was (and is) highly ranked and which seemed to be (and was) an excellent fit for me. I have no idea whether I would have gotten more offers if I'd taken one year off rather than two. I think it's unlikely that I would have been admitted anywhere had I applied during my senior year.

    My application included a list of books on philosophy that I had read during my time off.

    Reply
  24. Anonymous coward

    What of it if you did party in Ibiza for two years? There is more to life than work. I don't see why you are not allowed to think this and also pursue an academic career.

    BL COMMENT: A lot of philosophers I've met think that if that's one someone thinks, they aren't suited for philosophy.

    Reply
  25. Anonymous post-doc

    I meant to say above (post #23): I took two years off -after- college.

    Reply
  26. Rich

    I think the prejudice–let's call it what it is, please–against students who have taken some time off for whatever reason is born of a certain class bias that probably infects the entire academy, and certainly infects philosophy according to Dr. Leiter. Simply stated, there is a large subset of philosophers who were fortunate enough to be able to go directly from high school to college, directly from college to grad school, and directly from their dissertation defense to the job market. While I certainly don't begrudge any of them their good fortune in having enjoyed such a linear academic career, some narratives–often the most interesting ones, frankly–are of the nonlinear variety. So if any of the philosophers who still maintain this prejudice against those of us living nonlinear narratives are reading this post, I would urge them to consider that there are multiple paths that can lead one to academic philosophy, and none is more or less valid than the other. Moreover, if you're serious–as many claim to be–about making our beloved profession less decidedly upper-class, male, and pasty-white, just knock it off. Evaluate applicants on their actual merits, and not on your entirely speculative (and almost certainly inaccurate) assessment of their "seriousness" on the specious basis of having had other circumstances, whether within their control or not, prevent them from staying on the linear career track you've been so fortunate to enjoy.

    I'd also like to take the opportunity to point out certain barriers that can prevent an applicant from "staying engaged" with philosophy during their absence from the warm bath of enrollment in an undergraduate or graduate institution. First among these is financial: even auditing classes at resident tuition rates at a public institution can be prohibitively expensive, particularly if one is not exactly in the upper tax bracket to begin with. And before I'm inundated with the inevitable chorus of "if it really matters to you, you'll find the money" by tenured professors making upper-five- or lower-six-figure salaries with benefits: please. Below a certain income threshold, there is no money to be found for such luxuries as enrolling in or auditing a course after food, housing, and transportation are taken care of (especially if one has children to support).

    Secondly–and this barrier is partly financial–if one is not formally enrolled at an academic institution, one does not have access to the latest publications in the journals. This makes it all but impossible for an applicant to stay current with the cutting-edge work in her or his field of interest. Given the prohibitive cost involved in subscribing as an individual, it seems beyond unfair to hold this lack of access against an otherwise promising potential student. After all, if they really do hold promise, they'll get up to speed once they're in your program and able to get to those journals again!

    In summary, then, while I understand there are practical considerations involved in finding *some* bases on which to narrow the pool of applicants, it occurs to me that understanding practical considerations ought to be a two-way street. Some people, practically speaking, can't jump straight from undergrad to grad school (or even from MA to PhD), and while they're away, they can't necessarily stay engaged with academic philosophy as it's presently practiced. What a shame if a profession ostensibly rooted in rationality and the elimination of prejudice were to slam the door in promising potential new members on such irrational grounds!

    Reply
  27. I went on tour with a band, traveled, and worked a bunch of crappy jobs. Now I'm getting a PhD

    I'll skip over the details of my 4 years off then MA and now very-good PhD program (since I doubt my story differs in any interesting way from the others told so far), and just mention one thing: the only disadvantage I experienced was that letter-writers had largely forgotten me. I was advised by my undergrad mentor (who had done the same) to consider auditing grad classes wherever I was living (which in my case happened to be near the program I am now in) to get back into the habit of doing philosophy, to have a chance to work on a writing sample, and possibly to make some new connections. Auditing is fantastic and I don't know why more people don't do it. Not only were professors happy to have me sit in for free, they encouraged me to fully participate, to come by office hours, and in some cases even to write term papers if I wanted, promising feedback (though obviously not a real grade). And I did end up with a letter from someone whose course I audited. I don't know how unusual that kind of welcome is but I'm pretty sure that at least allowing interested students to sit in and participate fully is pretty common.

    Reply
  28. anonymous grad student

    I also "took time off" (2.5 years, I think) between undergrad and grad school (though I wouldn't characterize it that way at all). I just want to register that I had no trouble at all getting good letters from my undergraduate professors despite the fact that I simply didn't really have any time to be actively doing philosophy during those years. (I was teaching high school and holding down additional jobs.) I think that keeping in touch with faculty is enough, at least in such a short time period. I also think I really do disagree that people who take time off need to spend some of it doing philosophy. I am very glad in retrospect that I did almost no philosophy during this time. I think it is worth really flinging oneself into other things, and, especially if you are doing a job that seriously affects other people, it's important to use one's intellectual energy to try to do that job well, not just for yourself but for the sake of those around you. Maybe this doesn't matter so much if you are waiting tables or working for a company you don't care about. But the idea that it's okay to "take some time off" from one's real life to do something "to help the world" often can be non-helpful if one really isn't invested in it. (I don't think anyone suggested anything along these lines here, but whenever I give advice to undergrads I try to mention this, because I think there's a certain kind of self-servingness that often creeps into their decision making processes that seems a bit abhorrent to me.) My friends who are good teachers (elementary, middle, high school) pretty regularly work 60+ hour work weeks.

    But yes, of course we are all bad at evaluating these kinds of conditionals, but I strongly suspect that if I had gone straight to grad school from undergrad that I would have dropped out. Not because I didn't know what it was like to work in the real world–I worked full time throughout college and before it as well as afterwards–but for much less tangible reasons. I'm just not sure the average intelligent 22 year old is really prepared to start a PhD program.

    Reply
  29. UChicago Undergraduate

    Advice given to undergraduates at the University of Chicago considering graduate school (note the fifth point in the last paragraph): https://coral.uchicago.edu/display/phildr/Advice+to+Majors+Considering+Graduate+School+in+Philosophy

    It should be noted that undergraduates at Chicago generally do quite well in getting into graduate school.

    Reply
  30. Kenny Easwaran

    I suspect that, as many other people have said, taking "time off" between college and grad school can be of benefit to the student (both personally and professionally). And like many others, I believe that most people on admissions committees won't explicitly hold it against the student (though perhaps there is some implicit prejudice of the sorts mentioned by Rich at 26).

    But it still has a potential downside. As suggested by "Possible grad student" at 21, there are certain features of creating an application to grad school that are easier to do when one is currently a student at a university, like get feedback on a writing sample, get recent letters of recommendation, and have access to current literature to have a sense of what might be interesting to work on. I think that for some students, these downsides may actually be quite large for the application, so it's important for students to think about whether some of the reasons that count for or against taking time off may be unusually important to them compared to others.

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  31. Aristocles

    I'm glad you said this.

    The fact is that my family has virtually no money to "play" with. Fortunately, we do have the fortitude to buckle down anyways, despite the problems of loans and my (perhaps) unattractive major. It will just take a bit longer to get around to graduate school since I would like to service some of my debt for a while as well as gain some experience teaching. Also, I don't mind having a little extra time to meditate a bit on whether I do actually want to do a philosophy Phd.

    I'm willing to bet philosophy is in my future since I am daily dreaming up papers I want to write. That would be peculiar if I didn't find philosophy intrinsically interesting.

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  32. Josh

    For what it's worth, I took a year off to teach English abroad before being admitted to a terminal MA. Now I'm in a PhD program, so I suppose it has worked out for me (so far!). It's obviously important to read during your year off, but I think it's even more important to be able to have good discussions about what you're reading with peers/mentors. Go out of your way to make this happen.

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  33. John Rapko

    As an addendum to Rich's post, I would note that Alasdair MacIntyre has suggested that one who lacks extended participation in cooperative enterprises, such as working on a fishing boat or a construction crew, is really prepared to think seriously about, and much less teach, ethics. To reject someone for a PhD program who has such experience, perhaps gained after an undergraduate degree, is elitist in a remarkably self-impoverishing manner.

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  34. John Rapko

    Alas, in a typical blogging fashion, I dropped the "not" from my post; it should of course read "is not really prepared."

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  35. ex-historian

    OK, I'm in a different field, but I am appalled by the suggestion that even a year off might be held against a student. I had two mentors from my undergrad institution who informed me that I "had to" take a year off because otherwise I would burn out. (I don't think this advice had much to do with me personally. They just thought it was good advice for everybody.)So I deferred grad school for a year, and in an important sense it wasn't really a year "off" since I had a Fulbright in Germany. Ironically, it turned out to be bad for my work habits rather than good, because I discovered for the first time in my life that there were things I enjoyed doing that were not academic work. I never could shake that afterwards. So, YMMV, but if you want to keep that worker bee mentality you might want to go straight to grad school and forget about such things as leisure and having a personal life.

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  36. Rachel McKinnon

    "I just want to emphasize that I'm not sure how representative the opinions so far are–maybe things have changed a lot in the last 10-15 years, and I'm behind the curvie. I am glad to hear of students who took time away and successfully returned. The usual reason for skepticism about such students is that they may not be as serious about philosophy, or they wouldn't have stepped away from it. And there is the additional worry that the time away means they won't hit the ground running when they return. Are those "good" arguments? Probably in some cases, but whether they're good or not, I have certainly heard them embraced by other philosophers."

    Not to pick on you specifically, Brian, but you exemplify a way of thinking that I think a lot of philosophers take on this issue. Frankly, I'm often shocked at how philosophers can reason like this.They take some observations and then reason one way, and think that that's (roughly) the only reasonable inference to draw.

    In fact, much as some in this thread have noted, one can take the same starting observations and draw *the opposite* conclusion! You might look upon someone taking time off (if they were were really serious about philosophy, they wouldn't have taken time off!) and see that as a mark against them; I see someone taking time off and coming back as a strong sign that they are *very* serious about philosophy. This is the opposite conclusion you draw.

    I think it's quite reasonable to draw that conclusion, which sheds serious doubt on the alternative way of reasoning.

    Who's going to take time off from philosophy and come back and be a dilettante? I find that outcome very unlikely. Data would be nice, though. But I conjecture that those who take time off between undergrad and grad school are *more* (not less) likely to complete the program. That would make the opposite inference, which seems all too popular, especially poor.

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  37. Rachel McKinnon

    The drinking and *drug* habits of a number of philosophers I know or have met seem to disprove Brian's comment. I don't see why having a bit of a party period in one's life means one isn't suited to professional philosophy. Maybe Brian can say more about what's driving this view.

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  38. Anonymous Associate Prof

    I don't usually post anonymously on this blog, but wish to in order to speak frankly. I've taught at undergraduate institutions for 15 years, and written more recommendations than I can remember. All the students I've recommended were worthy enough. Having said that, in my estimation, almost all of the students who took a year or two off and then applied to MA and PhD programs were far more serious, mature, and dedicated to the graduate-study enterprise than were the students who assumed they'd go straight through. My straight-through students seemed more likely to be applying as a matter of course, as if MA programs were just another set of classes to register for. My time-off-takers are usually more savvy and focused.

    This doesn't contribute to debates as to whether or not the time spent regrouping, earning, or playing is held against the applicant. But my time-takers seem to succeed in getting into the programs of their choice at slightly higher rates. (Only slightly, though.)

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  39. Michael B

    As an aside, I wonder how such thinking – holding time away against an applicant – if it exists, meshes up with potential for ageism, perhaps unintentional, down the line. Since, obviously, assuming two cohorts start and finish undergraduate at the same age, one cohort that takes time out will, on average, finish later and older than the cohort that did not.

    I suppose we could recast this as a critical thinking question in a class on logical fallacies or whatever. Would you, as a teacher, mark as correct a student who answered 'yes' to: 'Given two otherwise-identical cases, should an applicant's having taken time out before graduate school be taken as evidence of their lack of commitment to philosophy?'

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  40. Nate Meyvis

    One small point that might not have been emphasized enough yet:

    Many of us think that philosophical work is enhanced by a strong background in science or art or math or whatever. Although many undergrads have such backgrounds, time between undergrad and graduate studies will be time in which you get or enhance a background in *something*. Even if the fact of having taken time off were viewed as a bad thing (and it's not clear that it is), whatever you gain from the things you do during that time might more than compensate, and this is even more true in a time when multidisciplinary/empirically informed/etc. work is often highly valued.

    FWIW I'm a fifth-year Ph.D. student who took time off between his B.A. and M.A.

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  41. Graham Smith

    If it is true that admissions committees in philosophy tend to be biased against students who took time away from philosophy, then we may have found one area in which engineering schools are more progressive, dare I say rational. After graduating with a degree in physics in 1992, I took time off of scientific and technical pursuits to work, remodel my mother's home, take stock of my religious convictions, get a second bachelor's degree in philosophy, marry, and take graduate coursework in philosophy, before applying to graduate school in engineering in 1998, six years later. I was offered admissions to almost every school to which I applied, and even offered fellowships for the PhD at places like Michigan and Wisconsin. It seems that the engineering admissions committees had as much reason to doubt my seriousness and ability to hit the ground running as any admissions committees could, but, apparently, did not allow such speculation to influence their decisions. It appears that, instead, they based their decisions on the qualities more clearly documented in my applications. I would hope that philosophy would be at least as rational.

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  42. Lewis Powell

    I think a lot of the remarks in this thread provide really compelling considerations for saying that the answer to the *normative* question ("Should admissions committees view 'time off' as a negative?") is no.

    But on the issue of the descriptive question ("Does 'time off', as a matter of fact, negatively impact a candidate's prospects?"), I think it is important to flag a selection effect on who would be commenting in this thread.

    If there are people for whom taking time-off had a substantial negative impact on their graduate school applications, they would be far less likely to comment on this thread than the people who took time-off and were successful in gaining admission to a phd program.

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  43. anon grad

    As an anecdote, I didn't take a year off and I came to regret it fairly quickly. I ended up taking a year off *during* my PhD program, in part due to being burned out. It's hard for me to imagine needing to take time off if I had just taken the years off before starting. I have students who sometimes ask about grad school. The first thing I tell them is my own experience of going in straight-away.

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  44. Savannah Pearlman

    While the other anecdotal evidence on this page have assured me that my two years off (currently applying) was not for naught, I would appreciate it if someone currently on an admissions committee could weigh in, as the conflict between the comments and the tone in the original post is a little nerve-wrecking for me.

    It does seem to be an unfair stigma, if it does exist. One would think that my 9-5 in Harvard's registrar would not make me seem like a less serious candidate, but rather a responsible adult whom, now having seen a little of life, is able to fully commit if offered a place in a program.

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  45. Anonymous

    I went to a Leiter top 3 school for undergrad and took 6 years off. During that time I earned two MA's and worked for 3 years. When I eventually applied to grad programs I had letters from prominent philosophers who remembered me from when I was an undergrad. I got into a handful of ranked programs from top 15 through top 50. I settled on a top 25 program where I recently completed my PhD. I got zero job interviews this season. I have publications, been cited by a few others, and have done several APA presentations. I realize there are lots of other variables to factor into getting an interview and eventually hired, but I can't help but wonder if the time I took off between undergrad and grad school is not hurting me now as a *job* applicant.

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  46. Rachel McKinnon

    Savannagh: some people who do or have served on admissions committees have commented. It's mixed. There's no one answer whether a given admissions committee will hold it against you or not: many will not, some will. And given that the composition of the committees change over time, what was true of a given department one year may not be true another.

    Apply away: this is *utterly* out of your control. The only advice relevant to your application would be whether (and how) a student ought to address their time off in their application package.

    Do people have specific advice about that? (I also suspect the answer(s) will be mixed.) If it's two years, I wouldn't even mention it.

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  47. Tim O'Keefe

    Anonymous@45:

    As you acknowledge, lots of people with prima facie strong profiles do poorly on the job market, so it's hard to know if time off has had any impact in a particular case. I don't think that it should.

    One small suggestion (don't know if it applies in your case): make it obvious up front that you took the time off, so that a person initially scanning your CV doesn't get the wrong impression concerning how long it took you to complete your PhD–some people do count an extremely long time to earn the degree against an applicant. E.g., don't make it look like you took 11 years to get your PhD when it took only 8 by listing the following at the top of your CV

    EDUCATION

    Ph.D. University of Square State (Philosophy), 2013
    B.A. Small Liberal Arts College (Philosophy), 2002

    instead of something like this

    EDUCATION AND EMPLOYMENT

    2005-2013 Ph.D. University of Square State (Philosophy)
    2002-2005 Copy Editor and Webpage designer, No-name magazine
    1998-2002 B.A. Small Liberal Arts College (Philosophy)

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  48. Grad Student

    'Time off" can play a particularly significant role in a woman's academic career. Commitment to a PhD program and the beginning of a new career is a 10-ish year span during which pregnancy would be extremely difficult, and it could certainly be a good tactical choice for women who want to have children to do so before starting a new graduate program.

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