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    The McMaster Department of Philosophy has now put together the following notice commemorating Barry: Barry Allen: A Philosophical Life Barry…

M.A. Programs in Philosophy

Brian Leiter

A student at one of the top terminal M.A. programs in philosophy writes:

“Much of the talk about grad school on your blog and on the gourmet site focuses on PhD programs and I just had some thoughts about choosing an MA program-

“1) It is important that MA students realize how short the MA program is. One will likely apply to PHD programs in the autumn of the second year. This means that most of the important ‘getting to know the faculty’ stuff will occur in the first year. If you are going to Tufts to work with Dennett and he is gone or not teaching in one or both of your first semesters, then it is not clear that Tufts’ distinguished faculty will be of much help to you. (Just an example; I know nothing about Tufts or Dennett)

“2) I am not sure, but I suspect that reputation of faculty plays a different role in an MA program. While the PhD student should certainly work with a well-published/ famous professor, the MA student might be just fine working with a young professor who is well connected and whose recommendation will be trusted at a number of institutions. I am not sure about this, but I see the possibility that working with a famous professor at an MA program might be less important than in the case of PhD programs. Prospective students might consider where the younger members of the department have taken their PhD from/ who they worked with at that institution.

“These are just a couple of thoughts that occur to me, but my more general concern is that there is not much “advice” for students thinking about entering MA programs. I think a public discussion about this in one form or another could be very beneficial.”

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23 responses to “M.A. Programs in Philosophy”

  1. Brian Weatherson

    These are good things to think about, but I'd add a couple of caveats.

    (1) I know Tufts was just used as an example, but there are *a lot* of really good faculty at Tufts beyond Dennett. The general point that leaves matter more in short programs is a good one, but it doesn't entirely apply here.

    (2) It's worth remembering that reputations change a lot more quickly these days than they might have in the past. (Actually this is just speculation about the past – there's some evidence that reputations could be (justly) made overnight back years ago as well.) If the talented young professor "is well connected and [their] recommendation will be trusted at a number of institutions" then that kind of thing will show up on Leiter rankings, especially among younger respondents.

    Reply
  2. Scott

    Having just started a masters program, I have a couple of thoughts. The post relates to whether it is important to work with established philosophers during your time as a masters student. There are at least two important questions which need to be addressed (though there may be more and the two of course are related).

    1) Is it important for your philosophical development that you are taught/supervised by established philosophers?

    2) Is it important to your academic future?

    My thoughts on the second question first. Your academic progress relates to both your time in the master program, your ambition to do doctoral work and possibly your career goals.

    Regarding your progress through a master program: I think it would be safer to be taught/supervised by those members of the faculty who have a lot of experience with the program. If it is a very difficult program, having experienced members of the faculty 'guide' you might reduce the possibility of failure. More positively, with more experience, they may know how to get the 'most' out of the program – whether your work is of the required standard etc. I'm not sure that those without experience of the program are as likely to offer as good advice. However, 'experience of the program' does not necessarily equate with reputation or being well published.

    This advice may not really apply equally to all programs as, depending on the structure, there may be little chance of failing and it may be fairly clear what one needs to do and how one can get everything there is to get out of the program.

    Regarding your PhD. Presumably similar advice would apply as to those who are applying straight from their undergraduate degree. That is, references are important, and the better known your referee the more likely an admissions panel will look closely at your application. Even if the program you are attending is prestigious it will still be better, but not necessary, to have well known referees rather than unknown referees.

    Finally, philosophical development. It may be the case that one could learn as much, if not more, from young and/or unknown lecturers. However, presumably those members of a faculty who have a reputation, have that reputation for their ability and contribution to the discipline. Metaphorically I will ask, if one has a choice between being administered by two doctors A and B, and A has a reputation for being an excellent doctor while B is unheard of, what is the safest thing to do? B of course could be the best doctor and of course A's reputation may be unfounded but, unless I had more information on B I know I would definitely feel safer in the hands of A.

    Reply
  3. Clayton

    Perhaps the worst piece of advice I received as an undergraduate was that a terminal MA would be a waste of time. My somewhat limited experience suggests that undergraduates really aren't ready to enter into a PhD program and would be well served working on a terminal MA before enrolling in a PhD program. This is particularly true in my case as I attended a very small liberal arts college that had two or three philosophy professors at any given time and only one who considered himself an analytic philosopher. While you might encounter those who would argue that taking the extra time to earn an MA will lead to burnout, I think undergrads seriously thinking about graduate work would be wise to see what graduate school is like before committing to a process that takes at least five years to complete.

    Reply
  4. Matt

    I'd disagree w/ Clayton at least a bit. A terminal MA program is surely a good idea for many students, especially those in a situation similar to his, where the student had a fairly limited philosophical background and would benefit from more exposure and time working w/ more high-powered material and philosophers. This is especially the case where the student is unlikely to ge tin to the sort of PhD programs she'd like to. But, if such a student has a pretty good philosophical background as an undergrad, and can get in to the type of PhD programs that she's interested in, it does seem a mistake to do an MA, especially since very few PhD programs give more than a very little credit for the work done in an MA program. If one can get in to the type of PhD program one wants to w/o doing an MA first, that's sure to be faster, and that should really be given more weight than most give it. Secondly, usually if one starts a a PhD program and then decides that it's just not for her, it's possible to take a terminal MA and leave the program, so the fear of deciding that such a program might not be exactly what one wants should not be given too much weight by someone who can get in to a good PhD program.

    Reply
  5. Eric

    As someone who used a highly-ranked terminal MA program as a "bridge" to a Ph.D program, I can offer a few insights.

    1. Some Ph.D programs will give credit for courses taken in terminal MA programs, although those that do give credits may offer a shorter window of funding time (or expect you to finish sooner)

    2. There may not be the level of competition present in an MA program as there is in a Ph.D program. While Matt is right that a student can always start a Ph.D program and then leave with an MA, the pressure and competition might be lower at the terminal Master's level. For those who aren't certain (I certainly wasn't) of their philosophical acumen or desire to commit to a Ph.D program, a terminal MA program might be a good fit.

    3. Much like looking at job placement history when considering a Ph.D program, checking the placement of your MA program is a smart bet. I assume that some programs are better than others at getting students into good programs (with funding!). It might be good to look into that, even if you aren't certain of your desire to do future graduate work.

    The Ph.D program that I am currently in has a fairly large number of students who have completed Master's degrees at other institutions. But I'm not sure that ALL programs look so kindly on those from such programs…I'm not sure how the most highly ranked programs tend, but I'd guess they prefer the younger up-and-comers over those who have "dilly-dallied" in an MA program.

    Reply
  6. Michael Shaffer

    Clayton's post does have some relevance and it is especially important advice for students coming from "impoverished" undergrad backgrounds to consider MA programs. I myself obtained an MA from Northern Illinois before getting my PHD at Miami and it was a very helpful expereince. I was better prepared in a number of respects than many other doctral students who had not gone for the MA first. Those who had MAs were generally better thinkers, writers and they were more familiar with contemporary work in most philosophical areas. They also had greater confidence, writing expereince, and (in taking the MA at a different school) had been exposed to a broader group of philosophers. A relevant comparative case I am familiar with concerns a very smart student who entered the doctoral program at Miami at the same time that I did. He came from a liberal arts program that employed the great books approach, and, as a result, even though he was very intelligent, he was totally unprepared for the rigor of an analytic PHD program. Despite his undeniable intelligence and liberal-minded education he was unable to compete and failed out of the program.

    Reply
  7. Lindsay

    Eric raises an interesting point about how terminal MAs are viewed by top programs. Is there any stigma attached to applicants with terminal MAs applying to PhD programs?

    Reply
  8. Ryan

    A couple of points:

    In response to Lindsey, I know of at least one upper tier institution whose admissions process is biased against applicants with a terminal M.A. This isn't because they attach any sort of stigma to them, but simply that they feel that the extra polish one's writing sample might gain from time spent in graduate school might falsly inflate one's apparent philosophical abilities. This leads the committee to read those applications with a higher level of skepticism.

    Second, not that I'm advocating this as a plan when entering a Ph.D. program (I feel it would be unethical to do so intentionally), but it is important to remember that if one takes the terminal M.A. after deciding that the Ph.D. isn't for them, she has gotten her M.A. on their department's tab, as opposed to the student who enrolls as a terminal M.A. candidate from the outset.

    Reply
  9. Andy Egan

    I don't know about other places, but while I was there, MIT was full of people who'd done MAs. (Tufts was particularly well represented.) So I'm guessing that their admissions committees look favorably – or at least don't look unfavorably – on MAs.

    Reply
  10. Brian Leiter

    Having served several times on Admissions here at Texas, and during a period when our admissions also became more competitive, my general sense has been that many students were helped greatly by having done the MA work–not by the credential, per se, but by the fact that their skills were more developed, and their references were able to comment in a more informed way on those skills and the student's potential.

    Reply
  11. Ralph Wedgwood

    An interesting difference between the US and the UK in that these days, everyone in the UK does a "terminal Master's" before starting the PhD (in Oxford, DPhil), since in the UK the PhD / DPhil is a pure research degree.

    In general, this aspect of the British system seems to me to work fairly well: it makes it a bit easier for students to transfer from one university to another between the coursework part (the Master's) and the research part (the PhD) of their graduate studies — although of course most students choose to stay at the same university for both; and there is less stigma in leaving grad school after the Master's, if one decides that one isn't interested in pursuing an academic career after all.

    Reply
  12. john doris

    My speculation — unencumbered by evidence — is that students who enter with MAs tend to finish their PhDs more quickly. If so, PhD programs, especially those faced with time-to-completion issues (as in some state schools), have good reason to look favorably on MAs. I suspect that this was the case in my PhD program, but again, I'm unencumbered by evidence.

    On the whole, I doubt that having an MA often hurts people in the admissions process.

    jmd

    Reply
  13. Eric

    To comment on Ryan's point, you can go to a terminal Master's program on that University's dime, eliminating the ethical dilemma. When I was in mine, it was funded with a modest stipend and tuition waiver. Now, that same program offers Teaching Asssistantships that offer stipends comparable to Ph.D programs.

    Reply
  14. Michael Sevel

    (1) As an alumnus of an M.A. program who successfully got into the Ph.D. program of his choice, and had choices besides, my experience has been that most Ph.D. programs are not generally biased against M.A. students. A friend of mine from the same M.A. program was offered assistantships or fellowships from Arizona, Texas, and Cornell, while Princeton also showed a genuine interest. On the other hand, I've never heard of an M.A. student being admitted to Harvard.

    (2) One advantage to doing a terminal M.A. is that it gives a student invaluable experience as a member of two different (probably very different) departments before hitting the job market. Many students who go straight to Ph.D. programs don't leave that campus until their first APA job interview; this is especially true in programs where (off-site) conference presentations or participation isn't particularly encouraged. I've found that the experience of traveling around a bit, so early in graduate school, has many benefits: it provides some basis to evaluate the Ph.D. program one ends up entering (B.A.'s usually have none) and it also gives one exposure to a diversity of styles of doing, as well as teaching, philosophy.

    (3) The grad student in the initial post made the point that M.A. programs can be quite fast-paced. And while that does not allow much time for faculty interaction and recommendation-earning, the fast pace teaches self-discipline. One is pressed to produce one's best work in a relatively short amount of time. This is in contrast to at least some Ph.D. program who can assume a more relaxed standard for student progress.

    (4) One thing not often recognized is that an alum of a terminal M.A. program instantly has both faculty and student contacts in a number of departments. Because M.A. students usually disperse to various Ph.D. programs, and department faculties are ever-changing, I now have friends, (both faculty and graduate students) in departments all over the country. Needless to say, there are many different kinds of benefits to having such contacts.

    (5) In my own case, the M.A. experience has complimented my Ph.D. program in ways that are possible only by doing the degrees separately. For example, I've found that my M.A. department does a vastly superior job of training students to be competent teachers (as a first year student, I received one-on-one instruction, from more than one professor, in such things as grading, leading discussion sections, lecturing to large classes, designing exams, etc.), whereas that is not really a top priority in my Ph.D. program. This will certainly vary according to the programs in question, but the point is that different departments have different strengths (and weaknesses) and by moving around a bit, a student has a better chance of receiving a well-rounded philosophical education.

    All these points seem to me to apply equally to both the underqualified and/or uncertain undergraduate, *and* to the student who is able to advance immediatley to the Ph.D. program of her choice. I think the virtues of terminal M.A. programs (particularly the top ten or so) are not often discussed, and I'm glad Brian keeps drawing our attention to these issues.

    Reply
  15. Chris Stephens

    In Canada, the situation with regard to M.A.s is about half way between the British and U.S. models. It used to be standard practice that pretty much everyone in philosophy got an M.A. before getting a Ph.D. Now there are a couple of schools (UBC is one) that will accept students directly from an undegraduate B.A. to a PhD program. But a majority of our admissions to the PhD program will still have received M.A.s somewhere.

    Re: Michael's point about M.A.s and Harvard – one of my colleagues got his PhD at Harvard after having an M.A. and I know of at least one other person offhand who did a PhD in philosophy at Harvard had an M.A – though in that case the M.A. was in astrophysics. But, for all I know, these are exceptional cases.

    Reply
  16. Ryan

    I know people presently enrolled here at Harvard that came via terminal M.A. programs. The program that I was referring to earlier was not my own.

    Reply
  17. Peter Thurley

    As a fourth year undergraduate student who is serious about a future career in philosophy, I am glad there is discussion on the question of terminal M.A. programs vs. straight-to-Ph.D. programs. Many thanks to the student who brought this up, and to the responses received from the readers.

    one question I have: If i decide to do a teminal M.A. program before entering the Ph.D. program, is it better to do my M.A. at a school other than the one from which I received my B.A.? Or does it matter that my B.A. and M.A. are from the same institution before moving on to a Ph.D. program at another school?

    thanks a bunch.

    Reply
  18. Tim O'Keefe

    Re: Whether to go to to a different program for an MA than for your BA.

    Yes, normally I think that that would be a good idea. Getting exposed to new professors with different perspectives helps with one's philosophical development.

    Of course, this is all else being equal. One advantage is staying at the same place is that you have (or can easily get) a good perspective on what the MA program is like. So if there is some professor at your undergraduate institution that you think very highly of, and with whom you'd really like to do further work, or if there is some other reason why your undergrad institution's MA program seems to be an excellent fit for you, I wouldn't rule it out.

    Also, on the topic of whether it's important to write your thesis with a 'big name.' All else being equal, doing so is preferable. But I think it's more important for one's philosophical development to write your thesis on a topic you're deeply interested in, and to work with a person who will give you valuable feedback. So in many cases it will make more sense to work with a less well-known person. But in that case I'd make sure to have some 'big names' on yoiur thesis committee and to take classes with 'big names' too, so that you can get letters from them.

    Reply
  19. John Bengson

    (1) As noted by a few of the preceding respondents, a terminal MA program can offer invaluable experience. In an attempt to add to the discussion, let me suggest three types of students that I believe can benefit from a terminal MA (having had no experience with the Canadian or British systems, my comments might apply only to US students):

    i. Students with a B.A. from a University with a smallish philosophy dept.

    ii. Students wishing to do analytic philosophy that received their B.A. from a University with a philosophy dept, big or small, that largely represents non-analytic traditions.

    iii. Students that did not major in philosophy as an undergraduate, but who wish to focus on philosophy in graduate school.

    Having had basically no exposure to analytic philosophy as, strictly speaking, a non-philosophy major at a University with a large, mainly non-analytic philosophy department, I satisfied both (i) and (ii). Not only did I lack training in analytic philosophy, I lacked the general philosophical background necessary to be competitive in a PhD program. A terminal MA allows students like myself to spend two years developing their philosophical skills so that they will be prepared for the rigors of a PhD program.

    (2) I assume that terminal MA programs in the top ten are especially helpful in this regard. But I think that I ought to say something in defense of terminal MA programs that are *not* in the top ten. The University of Wyoming (my terminal MA program) is in a transition stage, so its faculty is, generally speaking, very young. As a result, it is not yet on the philosophical map. This may hurt me when I apply to PhD programs this winter (though I hope the wounds it causes are not fatal): for one, the University of Wyoming is not in the top ten, which means that it is viewed as anything but a philosophical powerhouse; second, since my letter writers are not "big names", admissions committees may not know them well, if at all. Nevertheless, I want to stress that the training I have received at the University of Wyoming has been exceptional. Because the department is quite small (5 graduate students, 5 faculty), there are many opportunities for the type of one-on-one interaction/mentoring that fosters rapid, tangible philosophical growth.

    As evidence for this last bit of speculation, I cite the fact that University of Wyoming graduate students have presented or will present papers at upwards of 10 graduate student conferences and 8 professional conferences, including the upcoming Central and Pacific APA meetings, *in 2004-2005 alone*. Given that these are analytic papers written by terminal MA students without an undergraduate background in analytic philosophy, I believe that this suggests that there may be some terminal MA programs outside the top ten (such as the University of Wyoming) that in a very short amount of time prepare their MA students to do quality philosophical work at the PhD level.

    Of course, one would hope that this will be reflected in Professor's Leiter rankings (which, I believe, serve as a very helpful guide to those interested in graduate study in philosophy), but obviously there is no guarantee that this will be so.

    (3) Having said all of this, I should probably backtrack for a moment to ask a question: although there may *not* be a stigma attached to applicants to PhD programs coming out of terminal MA programs in the top ten (e.g. Tufts), is there a stigma attached to applicants coming out of terminal MA programs that are not in the top ten?

    Reply
  20. Manyul Im

    There seems to be a lot of anectdotal evidence being given for various claims. So…I'll offer a few more anectdotes. I teach at a department with somewhat low requirements for entry into our M.A. program, but it is cheap (relative to say, Tufts) and students, both good or bad it seems, get lots of time from professors. Our good M.A. students have ended up in the past 5 years getting into some highly ranked programs: Stanford, Irvine, Minnesota, and USC. Each of these students has benefited from being advised by faculty who have recently received Ph.D.'s from prestigious programs and can coach them on the finer points of admission materials. Likewise, these students have all been able to rise out of their (our) M.A. program's relative obscurity by polishing their skills and producing very good work. Anectdotally, I think that shows that if you have good, and helpfully saavy, professors in any M.A. program, you can make up a lot of ground in terms of being competitive for Ph.D. programs–so long as you are already pretty sharp intellectually. But, as I say, this is just one more piece of anectodal evidence.

    cheers.

    Reply
  21. Kurt

    Under the categories posted by John Bengson I would fall into the third (iii). I received my BA in Political Science from the University of Toronto and after taking some time off to travel and work, I have decided to pursue graduate study in philosophy. Since my background in the discipline would basically only amount to a minor (with a heavy focus on political theory/philosophy), I doubt, at this pont, that I would competitive candidate for direct PhD entry.

    Consequently, I'm looking for MA program that will help 'fill in the gaps' of my philosophy background and that will serve as a stepping stone towards a good PhD program. In this respect the Leiter report has been extremely helpful guide as well as all the comments written above.
    It seems that many schools in the UK offer general MA programs (i.e. UCL, King's, Birkbeck etc) for students who are switching over to philosophy from another field. Although the aforementioned schools are considered to have good reputations, they carry a pretty hefty price tag (especially for Canadians!).

    Do you think such programs would be worth the investment or would pursuing an MA in Canada at a comparable program (University of Western Ontario, UBC, Alberta, etc) provide me with as good a shot at a top PhD program? Any advice/feedback would be hugely appreciated.

    Reply
  22. Scott Piland

    Does anyone know about people who decide that they would like to do a program other than an M.A. in Philosophy, who want to get a Ph.D in Philosophy? I am enrolled in an advanced seminary program (Adv.M.Div) that allows 18 credit hours of electives that I plan to take somewhere else in philosophy and am wondering what I might expect. With a limited undergrad emphasis in philosophy (12 hours) I plan to take one undergrad philosophy course per semester in addition to seminary classes. I'm not for sure if I would need to do an M.A. after this. Any suggestions?

    Reply
  23. John

    Just wondering if anyone can advise on how one year masters course may be viewed when applying to a PhD program? A university I'm looking at in Australia offers a one year masters in philosophy, coursework and a thesis requirement, and I would like to know whether this would be considered as a full masters when applying for American PhD programs?

    Reply

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