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Philosophy Publications and Hiring Practices

The thread on the editorial practices of philosophy journals has produced voluminous and very informative comments.  Jason Stanley (Philosophy, Rutgers) suggested that it might be worth calling special attention to some comments by Keith DeRose (Philosophy, Yale) that raised important issues (that we have touched on before) and also broadened the topic of discussion in ways that might warrant their own thread.  Professor DeRose wrote:

For some important purposes, there really is no substitute for actually reading a whole lot of a philosopher’s writing. For instance, at least in the final stages of a hiring decision this should be done, and as well in making a tenure decision….  To the extent that publication record — which I’m here taking to mean one’s list of publications; how many & which journals: what one can tell by looking at the CV — at all crowds out such a careful look, that’s a very bad thing….  By the time you take a look at a tenure candidate’s material that’s as close as that situation deserves, the issue of what journals the candidate was able to get that work into should usually drop out as irrelevant. (In extreme cases, if the candidate consistently fails to publish at all or consistently publishes in very bad venues, even though the work is excellent, there’s probably a problem there in publication strategy that should be addressed.)

But for other purposes, I think publication record should be given a larger role than it is presently given. For instance, in the hiring process, you simply can’t (or at the very least, very few departments actually will) read a whole lot of writing by every applicant. There has to be some narrowing down process. And in this narrowing down process, publication record too often (in my view) gets trumped by other factors that are much worse guides than publication record, like, for an important example, institutional affiliation.

So, here comes my complaint about our profession. It really isn’t sour grapes: I am very happy with how I personally have done as far as the jobs I’ve had. But I’ve known many (& have known of even very many more) very talented philosophers who have been put in a situation that’s very tough to dig themselves out of. We as a profession aren’t very good at discerning which 22-year-olds graduating from college are likely to be the best philosophers, and not that much better at discerning this when it comes to 28-or-so-year-olds coming out of graduate school. But which graduate school one gets into and what job one initially lands tragically does very much to determine how well one is likely to do, long-term. It often happens for instance, that extremely talented philosophers who deserve to do as well as those landing the great jobs instead end up at some low-prestige job with a heavy teaching load. Every now and then, one of them quite heroically overcomes the odds of having to write while teaching so much and puts out a bunch of excellent papers in really good journals (which at least often they’re able to do largely b/c the journals use blind review!). But, too often, they can’t get the people with the power in the profession (& who know that the candidate works at a low-prestige place) to take their work seriously. They loose out to candidates (the "chosen ones") who, despite their very cushy teaching loads, publish little in good journals but who have something that all too often proves more valuable on a CV: a high-prestige institutional affiliation. In my view, this is a very bad thing.

We have lots of extremely talented, but highly underemployed members of our profession. It’s important to provide some way by which they might possibly dig their way out of that hole. One important way is to have lots of good journals with blind review, and for all of us to resolve to take publication records very seriously. This doesn’t mean to hire someone based only on the quality of the journals that have published their work. But I am thinking it does mean something like this: If someone develops a good publication record, as you can tell simply by looking at their CV in a hiring situation, or as you should notice if they’re publishing in your particular field, take that as strong prima facie evidence that they are doing excellent work, and then take a good look at their work. I’d also suggest, in a comparative vein, to take a strong publication record as a stronger reason to take a close look than that some other philosopher in a high-prestige job, and therefore well-connected with high-prestige friends, gets a lot of good word-of-mouth.

Despite the very real weaknesses in the process by which journals choose which papers to publish, reading around in the best journals (at least those papers in your area(s)) is a good way to read a lot of very good stuff, and if we all did this & became aware of such good work, that might also result in the goodies of our profession being distributed a bit more fairly.

That so many of our best journals use blind review, and that so many do as good a job as they do in the selecting process is one of the best things about our profession.

On the same thread, Jason Stanley remarked in response:

Keith’s "complaint about the profession" post above about the over-valuing of high-prestige institutional-affiliation is one of the wisest, most incisive, and most important comments about the profession I’ve ever seen. Brian should post it independently. It gets so bad that people with pedigree but lazy work habits perpetuate the self-serving myth that regular publication is a sign of philosophical shallowness. That’s how bad the problem is.

I think I can guess which "top 10" department Jason has in mind in particular, but the issue isn’t, of course, specific to just one department.  There are really two general questions here:  (1) how widespread is the problem Keith identified?  (2) what can be done about it?

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25 responses to “Philosophy Publications and Hiring Practices”

  1. My sense is that the problem is widespread. Administrators and the careerists in our ranks are looking to lend prestige to the departments with which they are affiliated, which is just what you would expect in a competitive economy. But this is not the main reason why it is difficult, if not impossible, for a philosopher without sterling credentials to enjoy a fulfilling career in academia. That distinction belongs to the fact that, outside of big-name colleges and universities, very few full-time teaching positions exist. They have been replaced by dead end, part-time ones, other splendid products of our competitive economy. Thus, it is now virtually impossible to work one's way up through the ranks.

  2. In the UK it is not unreasonable to think that the RAE has produced something close to the situation that Keith seeks for the US. As someone who in general opposes the way the RAE has distorted the profession here, forcing everyone to seek publications at every stage of their career, even if their talents are better used in other ways, I have to admit that it has changed appointment practices. Word of mouth has less influence now, and there are many cases where people with excellent publication records have moved from lesser to better institutions.

  3. Anecdotal evidence that I've come across in my admittedly short time in the profession suggests that Jo Wolff may be right that the US has a bigger problem in this respect than the UK. One certainly hears stories of candidates with numerous excellent publications being passed over for tenure track jobs in the US in favour of candidates with few or even no publications whatsoever but a PhD from a top US department. The RAE does indeed oblige UK departments to take account of recent publications in making hiring decisions, though for first-time permanent posts especially there is a danger that quantity could be rendered more important than quality (on this, see my posting and Helen Beebee's follow-up on the original thread). I do wonder about hiring decisions for post-doctoral research fellowships, though. These can make a big difference to how many publications a candidate has when applying for permanent UK (or US tenure track) jobs, and I imagine RAE considerations do not affect hiring decisions for these positions.

  4. Yup, Keith and Jason are on to something. Better–a whole lot of somethings. Let's untangle some issues.

    There are fewer good jobs than there are deserving candidates. Some very clever, talented people are stuck in lousy jobs–endless adjuncting, part-time dead ends, and the like. That is true, and it is a disgrace, as well as a tragic waste of human capital. But it is administrators and provosts who should feel the shame, not philosophers, even when we are on hiring committees. No matter what methods we adopted for hiring, it would continue to be true. Even if we purged Keith's over-employed philosophers from their undeserved jobs (a move that, from personal considerations, I must strongly oppose), there would not be enough good jobs for the good people out there. That can only be solved by creating more genuine tenure-track jobs, or by reducing the number of smart people who try to make a career of philosophy. This issue is completely independent of the "pedigree vs. publications" issue. Some of the vehemence and outrage that is legitimately directed at the question of under-employment is not, to my mind, legitimately transferred to the question of "pedigree vs. pubs".

    Now onto "pedigree vs. pubs".

    To begin with, which are the "high prestige institutions", affiliation with which Keith would have us play down? This could mean the institutions that have a lot of prestige in society at large (e.g. the Ivies, here in the U.S.), or it could mean those that have a lot of prestige in the philosophical world–and the two are not at all the same. Harvard still looms large in the public mind, but it has been several decades since Harvard was a high-prestige name in philosophy. Being a graduate of Pitt will not get you into country clubs, but it carries some weight in philosophy hiring–and this goes threefold for Rutgers. If Keith is telling us that we should not be overly impressed by a Harvard or Yale degree on someone's CV, then he is giving advice that is already incorporated into most philosophers' deliberations. If he is telling us to ignore the fact that someone graduated from Rutgers in the last few years, then I don't know if it's good advice. Depending on which class is picked out by "high-prestige", this advice may be sound but needless, or not sound at all. (And incidentally, credit should go to Brian for helping to drive a huge wedge between these two kinds of prestige).

    Next, there is surely a big difference between a B.A. and a PhD. I don't think anyone hires a new philosopher because of the school from which they got their B.A., and neither do I think that going to a less prestigious B.A. institution has ever been held against anyone whose subsequent career was impressive. So once again–if Keith is telling us to ignore a job-applicant's prestigious B.A. pedigree, this is sound advice, but already widely taken. If he is telling us to ignore their Ph.D. pedigree, I'm not sure this is sound.

    The BA/PhD distinction would be a red herring if there were a high correlation between the two–i.e. if Princeton's PhD program was packed with Ivy BA's, and if BA's from lesser-known schools only went to second-tier PhD programs. But in fact, nothing of the sort is true. There is an immense amount of mobility between undergraduate and graduate school. Jason's and Keith's own CV's provide clear examples of people who went from less prestigious BA schools on to more prestigious (in philosophy) PhD programs, and now have jobs at which they are–well, not under-employed, anyhow. This could not have happened if each later selection process had merely repeated the mistakes of the earlier selection process.

    Keith and Jason are worried about early and arbitrary success being locked in. I am sure it sometimes happens that a gold-plated CV perpetuates itself contrary to merit. But how often? How often in philosophy, as opposed to banking? Can someone with no philosophical talent really get into a prestigious BA institution, major in philosophy and take honors, get into a first-rate philosophy PhD, do lousy work throughout their graduate years, and get the kinds of letters and writing sample that will land them a job? How often does this happen (and why wasn't I able to pull it off)? How often, by contrast, do we have kids like Keith and Jason whose philosophical abilities are spotted at some point and allow them to move from a less-prestigious track to a more prestigious track?

    I'd like to see real numbers here, so that I could tell whether their worry about frustrated merit is possible but vanishingly rare, or whether my meritocratic scenario is possible–and indeed instantiated by those two–but rare enough that my confidence in upward mobility is naive? And remember, the question cannot be settled by pointing to one or more talented philosophers whose talents did not land them good jobs–because we already know that this will result from the lack of good jobs. There is no way to distribute good people over good jobs so that all the good people have a good job–so that fact alone cannot show that our current sorting method is flawed.

    Now to the core of the topic. I have two applicants before me, and must choose whom to put on the short-list. We are all agreed that the best way to assess someone's abilities and potentials is by reading their work (and I would add, by having face-to-face philosophical discussions with them). So our question now is predicated on non-optimal conditions: if we have to do it some non-best way, what is the second-best?

    One applicant has been associated with a succession of institutions less well known both in general and among philosophers. The other has degrees from several famous names. The first has some publications on their CV. The second has nothing but a writing sample. I am forbidden to read anything other than their CV's and letters (which I include because Keith also complains that the high-prestige candidate have "high-prestige friends," and so "gets a lot of good word-of-mouth", I assume in part from letters).

    Keith urges us to give considerable weight to the publishing records. This part of Keith's advice seems perfectly sound–but once again, I do not know anyone who thinks otherwise.

    I have never been in a hiring committee in which a candidate with more publications did not get credit for this fact when compared with a candidate who had fewer. For any stage in the candidate's career–ABD, fresh PhD, three years on the market, five years on the market, etc.–there are expectations about how much one should have published, and people who have done that much or more are given credit for it, where people who have done less are disadvantaged (and again, we are hypothesizing that we know no more than appears on the CV's). That has not only been standard when I have hired with Keith (as I have done a few times), but when I have hired with people unaffected by his views.

    Keith also wants us to give lesser weight to institutional affiliation. But is this a good idea? Does the fact that someone gets a PhD from an institution that is recognized for excellence in philosophy, and gets letters from their advisors that attribute talent to the candidate, really amount to no more than a popularity contest, or the playing out of a sequence pre-ordained when they applied to their father's prep school? I don't see it. Discount BA's if you like; discount the schools that are high-prestige in banking but unimpressive in philosophy–that's all fine with me. But PhD granting institution surely carries some relevant information. And to refer to the opinions of other philosophers as merely "word of mouth" strikes me as very odd indeed. Is the testimony of experts to be discarded in this way?

    All of the second-best options, it seems to me, involve trusting in testimony, i.e. taking someone else's word for it. Should we take the word of two referees for a journal, who thought that the work was good? Should we take the word of various admissions committees, who thought the candidate was acceptable? Should we take the word of their advisors, who wrote letters for them?

    I would say–look at all of it. And I think people do, already, in proportions and weightings that are roughly right, or at least are not amenable to abstract improvement (I say weight them 45/55; he says 35/65: how do you implement or measure the change?). I think that Keith's proposal has a lot of good advice in it, but does not alert us to any crisis in the profession. The crisis in the profession has to do with the lack of good jobs for good philosophers, not with the way people are hired.

    Finally–I completely agree with Keith that blind refereeing is one of the most important mechanisms for enabling upward mobility. As is Brian's rating system. As his ratings increasingly distinguish philosophical prestige from public prestige, we should come to be *more* confident, not less, in taking the opinions of the people at prestigious institutions about the merits of their graduates.

  5. As a grad student who is currently "hitting the market," I appreciate the fact that some of the issues that have been raised here on Leiter Reports are being discussed. I have been fortunate enough to have some articles accepted for publication, but I have nevertheless assumed all along that since I am not coming out of a top-30 program (per the PGR), I will need as many publications as possible simply to be on the same playing field as someone with NO publications coming out of a top-30 (especially top-10) program (which is not to suggest that most of these students do not also have publications) . This is precisely what motivated me to send out papers that I might otherwise have held onto a bit longer. Unfortunately, I suspect that much of what has been said about pedigree and prestige is true. This leaves those of us who are deficient in these attributes–but who nevertheless do work that is publishable in good journals–with little choice but to send as much out as possible. If we do not, then we will not even be given a fair shake at the job market. Indeed, even some who do publish in good journals may not have much luck–something all of us should know before we enter graduate school in the first place (thanks to PGR, many student get into philosophy knowing the long odds of success). If only our failures and successes were based solely on our technical skills and our ideas rather than on how well we did as undergraduates or how prestigious the universities that we have attended have been, then we would all likely feel much better knowing that some of us end up in adjunct or other non-tenure track positions. In this respect, philosophy is admittedly no different than nearly any other employment arena where it is often the case that who you know can sometimes be more important than what you know. It's just that philosophers of all people–i.e. lovers of wisdom–should be more interested in the later than the former. But so long as pedigree and prestige are a quick, easy, and fairly accurate way of measuring a candidate's capability or potential–which they are–those of us who are trying to get in "from the outside" should presumably keep sending out as much of our work as possible (so long as our advisors think it is sufficiently good, of course).

  6. One thing that seems clear from the last two postings is that different people have quite different perceptions of the hiring practices of top institutions. Sometimes just the perception can be enough to damage someone's career, even if the perception is false. If, for example, candidates from outside the top institutions sometimes don't bother applying for jobs at top institutions because they think they don't stand a chance then that in itself is damaging both to them and to the profession.

  7. Tad Brennan writes:

    "For any stage in the candidate's career–ABD, fresh PhD, three years on the market, five years on the market, etc.–there are expectations about how much one should have published, and people who have done that much or more are given credit for it, where people who have done less are disadvantaged . . . "

    This comment strikes me as apt–having served on a few junior search committees at various institutions already, I have learned what sort of publication record is generally expected for candidates early in their careers. What I wonder is whether there are similar widely-shared stable expectations about publication records when candidates come up for tenure. Obviously, expectations vary wildly across institutions, and perhaps also across specialties. Yet I thought I'd see if people have _general_ thoughts on the matter. (I'd have preferred to post this anonymously, but Brian reasonably requested otherwise.) My suspicion is that there are not widely shared expectations about such matters, that frequently the recommendations of tenure letters do not converge. But as I have no experience in the matter, I'm only guessing.

  8. For the record, at least with respect to junior hiring, I think Keith and Jason are basically right. (Sorry Tad.) I've been on both sides of the hiring table for junior candidates and seen a lot of what goes on at APAs (and pre-APA venues) with regard to word of mouth and decisions made about candidates' "promise" based on letters from the right people and right institutional affiliation.

    It seems to me that in some cases (but not always!), hiring for high prestige assistant and sometimes associate level jobs depends more on buzz and less on proven talent than it should. There is a related phenomenon that sometimes occurs: search committees will read an unpublished paper from an applicant with high prestige affiliation who gets good word of mouth, and think "this is good, and interesting—the revised version will be fantastic!" Then they will read a published paper of the very same quality from an otherwise equivalent candidate without high prestige affiliation and think: "this is good, and interesting." Guess who gets the job offer? What troubles me about this process is that I see little or no justification for thinking that the unpublished paper will be better in revision than the published paper, given that the candidate with the published paper lacked the connections to get good word of mouth.

  9. Tad Brennan writes:

    "Keith (DeRose) urges us to give considerable weight to the publishing records. This part of Keith's advice seems perfectly sound–but once again, I do not know anyone who thinks otherwise.

    I have never been in a hiring committee in which a candidate with more publications did not get credit for this fact when compared with a candidate who had fewer. For any stage in the candidate's career–ABD, fresh PhD, three years on the market, five years on the market, etc.–there are expectations about how much one should have published, and people who have done that much or more are given credit for it, where people who have done less are disadvantaged . . . "

    Adjunct instructors, as Prof. DeRose noted in his original post, must make a "heroic" effort to find the time to write and get things published. They are at a disadvantage in relation to full-timers, who usually carry much lighter teaching loads. (Just driving to and from various "campuses" takes a lot of time away from writing.) Beyond that, an adjunct's lack of job security is a psychological handicap. Thus, a job candidate's publication record does not necessarily reflect how well he/she can do philosophy.

  10. I have a post about this on Crooked Timber that might be of interest.

  11. Kieran,
    Sociology says that grad students aren't really agents in a market, they're just the currency in a status-exchange? Well, of course–that's just obvious common sense!
    (http://www.crookedtimber.org/archives/002867.html)

  12. Kieran's post on crooked timber is good reading for those of us on hiring committees this season (as well as the attendant links). I learned a lot from it. I think there is a strong inclination among philosophers to believe that they are reliable indicators of "philosophical horse flesh" (especially, as Kieran points out, because we have no empirical work to base our judgements on, we have to go on 'factor x', i.e. 'the whiff of genius'). What we need in philosophy are reminders that, in our early predictions of philosophical success, we are following certain well-entrenched patterns that occur regardless of academic area, and are explicable on grounds other than their reliability (e.g. check out Kieran's herding behavior comment).

    It would be nice to have good studies of philosophy departments so we as a community could get a better sense of what we're doing when we make these selections during hiring season. Until that happens, we can only rely on these anecdotal comments from those of us who have observed hiring practices over the years, which may be no more reliable than our guesses about which 28 year old will not be distracted by their personal life over the next forty years from producing an important body of work.

  13. Tad Brennan wrote: 'For any stage in the candidate's career–ABD, fresh PhD, three years on the market, five years on the market, etc.–there are expectations about how much one should have published.' Yes: and from my experience in junior hiring, I'd say that the current expectation for 'fresh PhD's' is that they won't have published anything. If they have published something, that's seen as supererogatory. The fact that this is what is generally understood to be the case creates a reason _not_ to give much weight to publications by fresh PhDs: namely, that doing so would be unfair to other fresh PhDs who may be equally good, but didn't attempt to get anything published because they believed that they wouldn't harm their chances on the market by spending their time working on their dissertations (or whatever) instead of polishing things up to publishable standard.

    Of course, expectations can change: though it would be nice if we could somehow convey a warning to current grad students that publication record is going to count for more in the future, a few years before it actually begins to count for more. The question that remains is whether there is any positive benefit served by the present regime on which the expectation for fresh PhDs is zero publications. I can think of a few: (i) Grad school would be a more stressful and less educationally beneficial time if everyone were struggling to publish as much as possible rather than giving their thoughts time to mature. (ii) It would make more work for journal editors and reviewers. (iii) It would confer undue additional advantages on those students who start graduate school already knowing how to write papers at a high level, over those who take a while to work out how to present their ideas with the accepted level of rigour. (iv) It would tend to fill the journals with articles that would not be as good as they would have been had their authors taken a few more years to think things through in more depth. On the other hand, Keith is certainly right that the current expectations make it hard for candidates coming out of lower-prestige institutions to get jobs at higher-prestige institutions, even if they have published a lot in an effort to level the playing field. This concern could partly be addressed by placing more weight on publication record for candidates who are not fresh PhDs. I _hope_ that this would be enough, so that we would not have to give up the benefits of not expecting publications from fresh PhDs. But I'm not sure. I'd like to know more about what the graduate school experience is like in other disciplines where fresh PhDs are expected to have more publications.

  14. In response to what I take to be Keith's central claim (that those who take a first job at a mediocre or worse place are usually unable to move up, even when their records clearly indicate they are outstanding): the main thing that is needed is for faculty at places higher up the food chain to take their work in searching for prospective colleagues much more seriously. Read the work! Insist that collagues who haven't adequately attended to the work do so before they make a push to hire their best friend's student. Don't be afraid to say: "I don't care if the candidate has a degree from "horrible U", the candidate has 3 really good papers out and a wonderful teaching file too."

    I do see more movement from 2nd and 3rd tier places to 1st tier places (based on great work by a candidate at a lower tier sort of school) than I see movement from still lower tier places into 3rd tier schools. This may well be because most hiring at lower ranked schools is *entry level* rather than at, say, the early associate level or Full level. So someone doing well at a weak school with a heavy teaching load may have a hard time moving up if (a) the work, though good, doesn't attract the attention of a Very top place and (b) most hiring at places that would be moves up is entry level — a candidate with the strong record I'm imagining would be ready for tenure/promotion.

  15. A similar issue occurs at the level of graduate admissions. Three important properties seem to be shared with the hiring cases: 1. Lots of competition; 2. Pedigree bias; 3. Diminishing opportunities (i.e Undergrad school limits MA, limits PHD, and then we get right to the immediate subject of the post). Because I was born in a red state and somehow managed to miss the Philosophical Gourmet Report when I was in high-school, I didn’t realize going to our Big-12 flagship campus would limit my future opportunities to the extent they apparently do. Having received no good offers the first time round, I stuck around for an MA. Now I graduate in December and I’m “hitting the market” in the Spring. From going to various conferences, etc. I think my writing is on a par with about anyone’s coming out at the same time regardless of pedigree. The problem is that I suspect (or at least worry) it will never get read. I’ve learned a lot from this post about hiring, but I’m still more in the dark than I wish I was about admittance, especially in terms of any broadly consistent policies from school to school. Obviously, the main sorter at this point is GRE scores, but I assume that it is by now quite obvious how poor a predictor this is of whether one will become a good philosopher (it seems to me that it’s so bad that it’s irrational to use it). I suppose the thought is that at highly ranked schools there will be a large enough pool of great-score applicants (many with good pedigrees to boot) that there will still be plenty of good philosophers in there and they’ll be found by their papers. I question this assumption. I also suspect that there is a not insignificant number of people such that though their scores and pedigrees were lackluster, if their papers had been read, they’d have replaced some people who’s acceptance was unfortunate. I’d like to urge that the same prescription be urged at this level: *read more of the papers*. I can imagine what groans this rightly provokes, but it seems that many of the arguments for doing so for new hires apply to new acceptees as well. Of course, I worry *I* might be one of those people, so perhaps I exaggerate the problem.

  16. Trent – in graduate admissions I think that the work does get read. If an applicant's file is super weak in other areas (transcript is awful, letters say "ok at best",) the file gets trashed. But if the basics of the file are in order, it's going to get read by at least one person on the admissions committee. And if you've got a great letter in the file it'll get serious attention. GRE's do matter – especially if they are Very low or Very high, but they don't settle things here or at any other place I know about.

  17. Fritz, thanks for the info, that's very reasuring. I hope that's fairly widspread. Since what I do next leads directly to the sorts of questions faced in the original post and subsequent comments, I thought it perhaps appropriate to express my similar anxiety about this stage. Remind me not to play poker with you (not-knowint what I do about you-that I would have been likely to do that anyway). 🙂

  18. TI believe Fritz Warfield is correct that the moral of the original post was to read the work. In other words, don't just trust the judgments of others when you can look at the evidence and form your own judgment.

    I think some people have taken the moral to be: count publications rather than just reading references. This is certainly how promotions are handled a lot of places, including Penn, but it shouldn't be the whole story. Ceteris paribus, is someone with 5 papers in good journals a 20% better philosopher than someone with only 4? I believe that numbers of publications do make a difference, but if they are used as a sign of future productivity, they can at best be a crude proxy.

  19. Since everyone (except Tad) seems to be arguing against letting graduate affiliation play an important role in evaluating job applications, I'd like to note one place where it can play a legitimate—and often a significant—role. In the very early stages of a junior search, committees put a lot of weight on a candidate's recommendation letters. In evaluating these letters, we are usually looking for explicit comparative judgments: "the best student we're putting out this year," "the best I've seen in a decade," "better than my former students A and B, but not quite as good as C," etc. Other things being equal, these kinds of remarks will count for more coming from a highly ranked program than from a less highly ranked program.

    Of course, other things aren't always equal! Some philosophers at big places are well known for writing badly inflated letters (a new "best ever" each year or, worse, multiple "best ever"s the same year); these letters are rapidly discounted. Nor does this mean that letters from less highly ranked schools don't count. It just means that stronger comparisons may be necessary: "one of the top three students in the last five years" from Princeton may be the rough equivalent of "one of the top two students in the last ten" from somewhere else.

    In principle, all this seems entirely reasonable to me. Great candidates come from lots of different programs (and from lots of different *kinds* of programs), but the highly ranked programs typically put out more great candidates—and put them out more regularly—than others do. Taking this into account when evaluating letters seems both rational and fair.

  20. Since everyone (except Tad) seems to be arguing against letting graduate affiliation play an important role in evaluating job applications, I'd like to note one place where it can play a legitimate—and often a significant—role. In the very early stages of a junior search, committees put a lot of weight on a candidate's recommendation letters. In evaluating these letters, we are usually looking for explicit comparative judgments: "the best student we're putting out this year," "the best I've seen in a decade," "better than my former students A and B, but not quite as good as C," etc. Other things being equal, these kinds of remarks will count for more coming from a highly ranked program than from a less highly ranked program.

    Of course, other things aren't always equal! Some philosophers at big places are well known for writing badly inflated letters (a new "best ever" each year or, worse, multiple "best ever"s the same year); these letters are rapidly discounted. Nor does this mean that letters from less highly ranked schools don't count. It just means that stronger comparisons may be necessary: "one of the top three students in the last five years" from Princeton may be the rough equivalent of "one of the top two students in the last ten" from somewhere else.

    In principle, all this seems entirely reasonable to me. Great candidates come from lots of different programs (and from lots of different *kinds* of programs), but the highly ranked programs typically put out more great candidates—and put them out more regularly—than others do. Taking this into account when evaluating letters seems both rational and fair.

  21. Here are some numbers, gleaned from info in the public domain. I think they are pretty accurate, but it wouldn't hurt to double check them.

    U.S. philosophy departments ranked in the latest (2004-06) Gourmet Report contain approximately 108 faculty members who received their PhDs within the last five years (1999 to present). Of these, 81 received their PhDs from programs that were ranked in the top 10, either at the time they graduated, or within the two years preceding graduation. 97 received their PhDs from programs ranked in the top 20, 103 from programs in the top 30, 106 from ranked programs. (I'm including Oxford and ANU in the top 10.) So, the breakdown is:

    PhDs from top 10 programs: 75%
    PhDs from top 20 programs: 90%
    PhDs from top 30 programs: 95%
    PhDs from ranked programs: 98%

    Mike

  22. This is a very thoughtful discussion. As someone who went to a decidedly non-top 50 graduate school I can see some of the reason for taking affiliation seriously — you know that more than likely the candidate had a decent education, or at least the sort of education that meshes well with the standards of the hiring department. At the same time I don't think hiring committees look at affiliation independent of letters, at least in my limited experience. And they look at letters for a good reason, they often aren't experts in the area which the candidate is claiming expertise and they wish to see what experts say whose judgment they take seriously. This is how tenuring works as well, you solicit letters and you evaluate how experts view the candidate. With junior hiring, unfortunately, the letter pool is smaller so you take bigger chances. But in hiring a historian of ancient philosophy, for example, not everyone can fully evaluate a discussion of Hellenistic atomism. I can't. So the profession proceeds on direct evaluation in part — is the writing sample coherent and interesting — and letter writers in part. I just don't see how else it can be done, given that most of us are not experts in all aspects of philosophy yet, hopefully, want a fairly broad department.

    It does make it really difficult to get a decent job, one where you have time to do serious research, if you come from a weak institution and you don't have publications. I totally agree that this ends up with many people who might be really superb philosophers falling through the cracks. Two of the best young philosophers I know have fallen into this situation and its really depressing. But I'm not sure how to solve the problem, other than when we find ourselves on hiring committees and we have a fair grasp of the area in which the department is hiring we should take the time to read the writing samples (I think most people do actually). It should be the mark of a strong department to hire the best candidate independent of pedigree!

    In the initial post Keith De Rose brought up the problem of evaluating 22 year olds for graduate admission as well as 28 year olds on the market. One thing that's depressing in both cases is people mature at different rates and some very great philosophers took time to get into their prime or took a long time to develop really original and well-thought out work. I fear that we select against these sorts of minds and I don't think it's good. But I don't think there's much of a solution.

  23. The whole matter of letters is interesting. On one hand, I suppose it goes without saying that the testimony of recognized experts can be very useful in judging the quality and prospects of junior candidates. On the other, you can't write a letter for someone you don't know, and you're a lot more likely to know the graduate students in your own department than ones elsewhere. Since the recognized experts mostly work in the top programs, their testimony is therefore mostly useful as a guide to the relative merits of graduate students coming out of the top programs, but perhaps less useful when it comes to comparing "pedigreed" junior candidates to candidates heralding from less prestigious quarters.

    Another thing that I'm curious about is the relation between letters and publications. Presumably, the experts who write letters are primarily testifying to the publication potential of the candidates on whose behalf they're writing. But it's hard to see how actual publications could count for less than a prediction of future publication, unless the predicted publications are understood to be significantly better than the existing publications. (I don't know that they really do count for less. I hope not, but my gut feeling is that Laurie Paul was onto something in her earlier post.)

    It would be interesting, I think, to compare graduates of top twenty programs to graduates of programs outside the top twenty both in terms of hirability and in terms of scholarly productivity. Are the folks from pedigreed programs outpublishing their peers elsewhere 5, 10, 15 years out? Or are they merely holding their own? Only when we know the answers to these questions will we be in a position to judge whether current hiring practices reflect an admirable prescience on the part of top 20 graduate admissions committees, or a discouraging small-mindedness on the part of top 50 junior hiring committees.

  24. Laurie Paul's comment is absolutely on the money, I've seen this happen a number of times. But it's important to remember that we don't hire people solely to be researchers. I hope we also hire them to be competent teachers and decent colleagues. This should not trump other considerations at a research institution but obviously it should be considered. At private institutions (like my own) outrageous student tuition bills pays for research. We should care a little more about this in hiring than we often do.

    You sometimes get a junior candidate who has good writing samples and letters, seem full of promise, is energetic and exciting in a way that will benefit a department, and has the unconfirmed makings of both an excellent researcher and an excellent teacher. You are asked to evaluate them against someone who has published in high-profile journals, doesn't seem like they will be a particular effective teacher and whose research program seems limited or not particularly interesting (if serious, rigorous, etc.). Is it necessarily wrong to choose the former for your position? Let's say that they will be teaching gigantic classes of students who may be among the next generation of philosophers. You think the less published candidate could be a great researcher but you are also pretty sure that they will teach well, excite the students in responsible ways, and so on. So you go with potential and excitement. I think that many decisions are like this, and I'm not sure why it's wrong. Most hiring decisions made on the basis of multiple subjective factors in addition to publishing. Was the job talk good? Did s/he answer questions adequately? In the end the objective factors should, and normally do, have pride of place, but that's not all there is.

    As to letters, hiring committees that I have been on routinely qualify the influence of gushing letters from famous philosophers at high-profile instutions if the letter writer doesn't seem to have a grasp of the field the department is hiring in. I'm sure that this is the case at other institutions as well. Conversely when someone comes from a mediocre institution but has an advisor who is credible in the field we are hiring in, that is much more important than the particular institution.

    I certainly recognize the complaints as valid, and Mike Pelczar's correlations as disturbing. But it seems in real cases it's normally a bit more complicated.

  25. Re: 1) pubs and pedigrees–the downside of prestige; 2) post docs

    Over here in Australia, I am not finding that pedigree is at all more important than publications. In fact for those of you who fume about not having the advantage of a prestigious degree and the injustice of promoting people with just those degrees, I'd like to assure you that it's not entirely the case.
    Prestigious institutions, can be complacent about jobs. They can also be less nurturing than smaller institutions. Many people don't realize this because they get sucked into the mystique of the name. I went to a very prestigious graduate school in the UK, finished in 2004, and the need to publish to get a job was never mentioned once. It is not in the department's interest to encourage publication as it slows down thesis completion. It is however very much in the student's interest for securing a job on graduation and avoiding a rough landing. I am now making up for lost time, as I see that my pedigree is worthless without a sterling publication record to accompany it.
    Writing for publication is a distinct skill from thesis writing and as it is an important part of the job, it is perhaps best not to hide the fact. I can't speak for grad schools in the US, which I hear do a very good job of preparing candidates for the job market. But certainly my prestigious UK experience did not prepare me for the 'bean counting' exercise to which young career researchers must submit themselves periodically. Therefore graduates of prestigious institutions (at least in the UK) might be at a professional disadvantage if their department has lost touch with the realities of hiring criteria. This is particularly the case if their candidates seek to work at 'red brick'institutions overseas.
    There is a real danger that these 'high prestige' departments are complacent about jobs. I've personally found better career advice on this website and the ANU website than at my own graduate school.
    I think it worth noting, however, that not everyone does a doctorate in philosophy in order to become employed as a professional philosophy academic. They do it for the love of it, fully armed in the knowledge that they might not be able to earn a living from it. That being said, I think often 'lower prestige' schools are better at conveying realistic expectations to their graduates. Many of their graduates are not devastated to learn that they cannot make a living as philosophers, because they have job experience in running a pub or a computer company or working for magazines already. By contrast, candidates at high prestige schools are, in my experience, less likely to have well developed back-up plans and alternatives.
    Being at a high prestige school creates pressures and expectations of its own. Having supervision with an opinionated world class philosopher can be intimidating as well as exciting. Standards may be imposed for thesis chapters that are actually higher than those imposed by some mediocre journals. All of this can crush a fragile ego. Finding out that one's classmates have secured permanent jobs faster than oneself can be deflating. It's hard to shine when every one in the class is a top performer. So I wouldn't say that going for a doctorate at a high prestige institution is entirely an advantage. Certainly in terms of the actual graduate experience, I think it may be a disadvantage for some types of people–those who dislike competition, for example. Like it or not, we are now selecting for philosophers with the personality trait of loving competition–which would not on the face of it have much to do with being a good philosopher. Of course loving competition may have a lot to do with productivity and academic institutions have a right to seek to hire the most productive people.
    ***
    Also, I think it's worth noting that the route to a permanent job now is changing. I estimate that we are–as a profession–about ten years behind the scientists in terms of job structure. The route now (at least in Australia and UK) seems to be one or two post docs before landing a permanent job. Scientists now do 2-4 post docs before securing a position. Post docs are essential for getting the time to create a publication record that is very competitive for permanent jobs. But of course securing a post doc is largely based on how much one has published up until the time of application. So…the moral is that those who do not publish while obtaining their doctorate are at a disadvantage. Of course there are still ways of compensating for the disadvantage, by publishing a lot while doing casual teaching.

    My main problem has actually been the two body problem of finding permanent academic jobs for both myself and my partner in the same city. But I'll save that topic for another time.

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