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Response to Comments

I cannot possibly do justice to these comments. Let me make just a few points in response to some of them, trying to group them thematically:

1. I think it important, at least for purposes of the subject of my blog on faith-based morality, to confine "religion" to theism. There are important nontheistic religions, such as Buddhism, and systems of thought, such as Communism in its heyday, that occupy the same position in the minds and emotions of adherents that religion does. In the United States, however, most religious people are theists, and the issue of religion in public policy is about theistic religion in public policy.

2. I am not an agnostic, if by that is meant (and this is the sense I have of the term, though it may be an idiosyncratic sense) someone who is perplexed as to whether or not there is a God; who regards this as an interesting question to which he happens not to have the answer. I am someone who simply doesn’t feel the presence of God in my life. That I think is the typical state of the nonreligious person, and corresponds to what I assume is the feeling of a eunuch about sex. The eunuch knows that sex is important to many people, but he doesn’t have any feeling of that importance. Sex doesn’t exist for him.  God doesn’t exist for me. That doesn’t mean that He doesn’t exist. My understanding of Nietzsche’s dictum that "God is dead" is not that it is a metaphysical statement, a statement of atheist doctrine, but that it is a statement that God is as if dead, to educated Europeans of Nietzsche’s era. I think that whether or not God is dead for one depends on upbringing and temperament, but not on arguments.

3. A fascinating question about religion and public policy that I did not address is what actual difference the religiosity of the American people makes to American law. If you look at a nation, such as Denmark (or indeed at almost any European nation west of Poland) or Japan and other east Asian nations, in which the Gallup Poll records very low levels of religious belief, you will see that their legal systems are very much like ours so far as substantive principles are concerned. What is true about the United States is that certain issues agitate our legal system for religious reasons, such as abortion, stem-cell research, gay marriage, pornography, prayer in the public schools, public recognition of the Ten Commandments, financial support of parochial schools (as by means of a voucher system), the teaching of evolution. Yet as a result of the Supreme Court’s rather heavy-handed enforcement of the Constitution, most of these issues when they get into court as so often they do are resolved as they would be by the ordinary political processes in more secular nations. The startling result is that the most salient difference, so far as the intersection of religion and public policy is concerned, between the United States and the more secular nations is that many of them have established churches! (Hume favored established churches because he thought they would deaden religion belief. He was right, at least in the Western European context.)

4. I really do take the view–this is closely related to point 2 above–that the sort of political discussion in which political philosophers, law professors, and other intellectuals engage is neither educative nor edifying; I also think it is largely inconsequential, and I am grateful for that fact. I think that what moves people in deciding between candidates and platforms and so on certainly includes facts (such as the collapse of communism–a tremendous fact), as well as a variety of "nonrational" factors, such as whom you like to hang out with–I think that’s extremely important in the choice of a political party to affiliate with. When a brilliant philosopher like Rawls gets down to the policy level and talks about abortion and campaign financing and the like, you recognize a perfectly conventional liberal and you begin to wonder whether his philosophy isn’t just elaborate window dressing for standard left liberalism.

5. I think that people are smart about their own interests and can also make fairly reliable judgments about the character and leadership abilities of political candidates, but that they are hopeless when it comes to understanding domestic or foreign policy issues of even average difficulty. I think this is true in all democracies. But I don’t think it’s anything to despair about. The government is run by a governing class consisting largely of professional politicians, civil servants, big shots from the private sector who take temporary jobs as senior appointed officials, and lobbyists and other representatives of interest groups. This class understands the issues. If it screws up badly, as it often does because of the intrinsic uncertainties of governance, it is punished in elections. In effect the people have a veto over their rulers, and this serves as an important constraint on runaway self-interest, exploitation, and corruption by our rulers. I do not think we would do better to have a government run by academics, which is the implicit model of government held by political philosophers, law professors, and the like. Would we really have done better over the last half century with Presidents Stevenson, Humphrey, a second-term Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis? And haven’t the universities, in their overwhelmingly liberal orientation (in most fields relating to public policy), forgotten John Stuart Mill’s dictum that ideas become flabby and stale when they are not exposed to vigorous challenge?

6. Finally, I can’t resist responding to the two commenters who asked me to identify the principal misconceptions of first-year law students. There are two, and they are closely related. The first is the idea that the law exists somewhere, in a book presumably (or, to be modern, in an electronic database), and that what you learn in law school is how to find the book, and that what law professors do, to justify making you sit in class for three years, is hide the book from you. The second misconception is that legal reasoning is something special, subtle, esoteric, which will enable you once you have learned it to answer a question in a way that would make no sense to a lay person. In other words–and this is what joins the misconceptions–law is a mystery.

But what law really is is a tool that law school shows you how to use. It is a rhetoric, a vocabulary, a tradition, a set of rules and conventions, which you can use to achieve practical results, which are the only results worth having. So if you’re a judge–which sounds like something special, something far removed from the real world of nonlawyers, but is not, or should not be–you are given problems that you try to solve in a way that will be realistic, having regard for the issues at stake, the relevant moral values of your society, the interest in providing guidance for the future, the goals behind applicable rules or standards, the value of a certain kind of neutrality or impersonality, and perhaps other considerations both particular to the case at hand and systemic. You should be able to explain your decision in a way that would make sense to a lay person, but need not convince him, because the conventional legal materials of decision are often indeterminate when applied to a case that has reached the appellate level, and then the decision will reflect values or experiences of the judge that are not universally held in the society, although presumably the decision will fall within some general range of reasonableness or acceptability.

In short, it should be possible to explain everything in law in perfectly simple, everyday, common sense terms. That should be the law student’s, the lawyer’s, and the judge’s creed.

I’ve gone on long enough, it’s late, and I’ll stop. Tomorrow I’ll discuss why it is, in my opinion, a mistake for American courts to cite as precedent decisions by courts in foreign countries.

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33 responses to “Response to Comments”

  1. Could not agree more with your comments about the necessity and ability to explain, discuss, and argue legally in simple terms that anyone could understand.

    This point is missed by many.

  2. Judge Posner,
    Ignoring much of what you have said so far and comment threads (though I read a few I liked at Left2Right), here are some thoughts on this post (the numbers correlate to your own):
    2. You seem to be referring to what I have heard termed ignosticism or apatheism (which each run well with humanism and secularism). The gist is that you detach beliefs in right or wrong (or the lack thereof) from beliefs in some existence of a Judeo-Christian God. Thus, the discussion of God's existence has little substantive value to you. In this sense, then, I think that "atheist" is quite unfit for you, as it is for many of us. Atheists, agnostics, and theists actually care about the question of existence and have beliefs: "he's not there", "I can't tell if he's there", "he's there". Apatheists don't care and have no beliefs; they don't even enter the debate. Does this better describe you?
    4. I've gone through a similar disillusionment with Ralph Nader. There's pro-choice and pro-life. Nader's third-party-ness does not grant him a transcendent third platform for this type of issue. This is not to say his set of views is not unique; it clearly is. But his set of views is not dramatically more insightful regarding hot button issues. Similarly, the political positions of the academy are not any more startling in virtue of a professor's "advanced" mind. In fact, I often feel that one of the highest merits of Noam Chomsky's beliefs is their simplicity, which has occasionally caused him to be accused of childishly simple thinking. And here is where I think something interesting and altogether uninteresting truly reveals itself: what the academy is doing, for the most part, is NOT attempt to give us the simplest answers. Referring with some facetiousness and yet some gravity to man's political nature, we seem to get by pretty well no matter what is thrown at us (you hint at this in 5). Humanity does not hang in the balance over Social Security, welfare, abortion, education, or even non-nuclear war, and thus increasingly grandiloquent and "researched" proposals for them are prima facie uninformative. What academia, at its best, gives us is attempts at a far-off Utopia where perfection is the ideal, the eternal goal, whereas the political sphere deals with a "better" tomorrow, saying little of the day after. In truly enlightening theoretical work, we glimpse at the possibility of a world of the least conflict, the highest efficiency, and the greatest abundance of resources. The irony that, I think, you are observing is that the long path to that Utopia is built upon simple stones. Observe how a world without disease, whose cures may involve intimidating chemical structures, must first have faith in the science of medicine, the will to use it wisely, and folks with completely different careers from medical researchers to ensure that the medicine gets where it needs to be. When Rawls tells us of egalitarianism, he is formulating an elaborate and highly experimental cure for human anguish. When he tells us of equal opporunity and affirmative action, he is attempting to prescribe his new drug on a simple and specific case. Occasionally, a home remedy like common sense might work just as well, but these cease to be nearly as effective in the long run nor as reliable in general. Verily, common sense did little to stop slavery on its own. Long story short (I know, too late), please don't marginalize the work of the academy.
    5. The difficulty that many people insist upon (both on the right and left) is the power of the media and propoganda at shaping the minds of the people who hold veto power. Anti-Bush people feel that one of the greatest injustices in this election is that he may have screwed up an unprecedented number of times in a variety of ways, yet the people who need to be educated and informed in order to responsibly execute their veto power are having the truth routinely obfuscated. In fairness, though I think in error, similar claims are made by the right. What goes in and comes out of those with veto power is almost universally agreed to be a mess. Herein lies the despair. As for the lack of "vigorous challenge" throughout fields of public policy in universities that are "overwhelmingly liberal", I flatly deny that there is a lack of "vigorous challenge", that universities are "overwhelmingly liberal", or that, even if they were, this somehow makes them more interesting to attack than the overwhelmingly conservative political world ("a governing class consisting largely of professional politicians, civil servants, big shots from the private sector who take temporary jobs as senior appointed officials, and lobbyists and other representatives of interest groups" that is quite frustratingly satisfied with American democracy, social hierarchy, capitalism, media, campaign financing, and legal process).

    I'm not going to attempt to edit or spell check this monstrosity, so be gentle if at times it's hideous.

  3. The difficulty that many people insist upon (both on the right and left) is the power of the media and propoganda at shaping the minds of the people who hold veto power.

    Yes, although I think the most influential entity is not media, rather it's a public organization they belong to, where they meet other people and discuss political issues. In Europe it's their workplace/union – thus the social-democratic course there. In the US it's mostly their church, and the natural result is all this appalling and frightening reactionary crap we've been seeing.

  4. My only issue is whether it is appropriate for a sitting judge to be blogging, writing, etc., since whatever the judge writes might become an issue when a judge is requested to recuse himself. It seems to me that, if a judge has expressed an opinion in a writing that might suggest that he has pre-judged a case, he would be well advised to recuse himself. Whether or not the writing is in an article, a book or a blog.

  5. I suppose we can worry about that whenever the issue of whether God exists comes before the Seventh Circuit Court of Appeals.

  6. Judge Posner:

    You write: In short, it should be possible to explain everything in law in perfectly simple, everyday, common sense terms. That should be the law student's, the lawyer's, and the judge's creed.

    That makes sense as an aspirational goal, but some things in the law are in fact complex, esoteric, and defy common sense. Judges in particular have an audience for their writing that is made up primarily of lawyers and lawyers-to-be. There is a balance somewhere between, for instance, a judge who continuously inserts "a twenty dollar word when there is a ten-center handy," and one who writes in plain speak but fails to cite to or account for precedent.

  7. Judge Posner: I respect your statement in Tuesday's weblog entry that "I am not an agnostic." I wonder, however, if you have tried to create a distinction that really doesn't exist. It seems to me, as you define "agnostic," that you really are describing the classic "weak agnostic." The weak agnostic is as perplexed as you say you are. This weak agnostic merely tells the world that he will await for sufficient evidence to prove whether or not there is a god or other gods. That seems to be, at least to me, what you are saying. As a contrast, the "strong agnostic" agrees that there isn't sufficient evidence but goes a significant step further. The strong agnost will say that there never will be nor can there be sufficient evidence. Later in the paragraph you do seem to confirm your true agnosticism when you write that "God doesn't exist for me." That bold statement — which would seem to be otherwise sufficient for the strong agnostic — is actually followed by the qualifier that that strong statement has to be limited by your own, and others', lack of sufficient knowledge or evidence. All of which puts you back in the weak agnostic group. Just like many of. In any event, bully for you. Your writing on any topic is always impressive. And deserves to be read, and challenged when necessary, by all of us. Thank you.

  8. Shag from Brookline

    As a generalization, good lawyering is the foundation for sound judicial decisions, as the lawyers have to educate the judges in too many instances. Some judges are lazy and incorporate ("judicial plagiarism"?) the language of the briefs that are most convincing to them. Some judges are creative and "find" issues that the lawyers have not raised or recognized; sometimes the judges stray too far in doing so, perhaps to push a particular bias. Some judges confine themselves strictly to the matter before them. At the appellate levels, in addition to the opinion of the court, there are the concurring and dissenting opinions. Do these opinions explain the law in perfectly simple, everyday, common sense terms, despite the separate and distinct viewpoints expressed? I think not. Lawyers compete against each other. Judges compete against other judges. Cases end but not the controversy. Isn't this a perfectly simple response to the creed of lawyers and judges that law students are urged to follow? Advocacy is the name of the game and simple does not always (nor often) prevail.

  9. Jerry,

    I think the difference between what you call a weak agnostic and Posner lies in the presumed fact that Posner is not awaiting sufficient evidence. While he would probably be intellectually curious enough to consider it if presented before him, he is really not pursuing the question, even passively.

  10. Thanks, Judge (for your comment no. 6).

  11. Judge Posner, do you lack the feeling of the presence of God in your life in the same way that you lack the feeling of, say, the presence of one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple people-eaters?

  12. Judge Posner writes:

    "You should be able to explain your decision in a way that would make sense to a lay person, but need not convince him, because the conventional legal materials of decision are often indeterminate when applied to a case that has reached the appellate level, and then the decision will reflect values or experiences of the judge that are not universally held in the society, although presumably the decision will fall within some general range of reasonableness or acceptability."

    I think this is extremely well said, and it reminds me of something the late Richard S. Arnold used to tell his clerks (of whom I was one). Judge Arnold used to say that a judicial opinion should be written so that the losing client — not the losing lawyer — would understand why he lost. "He won't like it," he would continue, "but he needs to know he was heard, and that he lost for a reason. That is the only way a body of unelected judges can maintain the consent of the governed." By the way, Judge Posner, he often circulated your opinions among his clerks.

  13. I am not an agnostic, if by that is meant (and this is the sense I have of the term, though it may be an idiosyncratic sense) someone who is perplexed as to whether or not there is a God; who regards this as an interesting question to which he happens not to have the answer. I am someone who simply doesn't feel the presence of God in my life.

    Hello Sir – I am enjoying your blogging immensely so far.

    I think that you and others have gotten tangled up in the definitions of "agnostic" and "atheist" the same as most people do. After all the colloquial usages of both words falsely indicate that the words address the same issue – namely, the existence or non-existence of an actual deity. However, "agnostic" has never meant someone who is "perplexed" as to whether or not there is a (capital-G) "God" (which seems to give a nod to the Christian capital-G "God" and discount the other ten-thousand-plus gods and goddesses that the human race has dreamed up over the years.)

    This is not the case. The words "atheist" "agnostic" and "theist" are not all points along the same line. "Atheism" and "theism" are two sides of the same coin. They deal exclusively with the presence or absence of god-belief in a human being, not the presence or absence of an an actual god.

    "Agnosticism" and "Gnosticism", another coin altogether, deal with claims of positive knowledge about whether a god or gods exist or not exist.

    So, as you can see, is is entirely possible to be both an atheist and an agnostic, a gnostic atheist, an agnostic theist or a gnostic theist. It sounds to me as if you are an agnostic atheist, sometimes referred to as a "weak atheist". In other words, you seem to be a person in which there is an absence of god-belief, and that you do not claim any positive knowledge regarding the existence or non-existence of any god or gods. It is simply a non-question for you, except academically. Am I correct?

    In any case, my apologies for cluttering up the comments with additional philosophical minutia. I'll shut up and read now. 🙂

  14. Hubbard T. Saunders, IV

    I wonder if Judge Posner felt the presence of God in his life when he took his oath of office as a United States Circuit Judge, 28 U.S.C. Section 453, and specifically invoked God's name and His help in keeping that oath?

  15. Quick question, but probably a longish answer. Would you please describe the various major philosophical and jurisprudential bases for taxation? I'm specifically interested in the criteria used by the various schools of thought to determine whether a given tax policy is good or useful.

  16. I wonder what Hubbard T. Saunders, IV is insinuating by his rude comment towards Judge Posner?

    Perhaps disapproving of atheism, he believes that a judge who takes a statutorily prescribed oath, while not believing in the generic "god" referenced within it, is somehow unethical or unsuited to the job?

    If that's the case, I'm sure that he knows that Article VI of the Constitution states that "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States." That language applies in Illinois. And like it or not, it would apply in Mississippi too.

  17. Pragmatism can be read as a highly liberal doctrine. There seems to be no intrinsic contradiction or inconsistency if a pragmatic system were to adopt religiously founded beliefs or principles. A (jurisprudential) pragmatist could make use of religion to help mold social issues. If there so happens to be a religious belief that seems to fix or mend or improve a given situation, then a pragmatist would be compelled, through ideological commitment, to adopt such a resolution. (One can relate this type of belief commitment to Stare Decicis and how Judges are expected to sustain core beliefs as they manifest into published opinions.) However, if such a belief revision occurs, it seems rather practical to “graph such an adoption onto a grid” of various degrees of commitment, in light of the facts. Conceivably, for example, a pragmatist can adopt the biblical meaning of marriage to uphold the law while subordinating such a commitment to the overarching pragmatic doctrine. Perhaps you can comment on this issue.

  18. Re: Point 5 above: All I can say to this is that many of us find the corrective force of elections subverted by exactly the sort of corruption that we the people are supposed to be able to wash out the scuppers every two or four or six years when we cast our votes. Judge Posner says in this same piece that judges should not be seen as managing mysteries or, I think, setting themselves in some special position in relation to the rest of us; but the blandly optimistic view of American democracy expressed above seems to me to emerge from just such a privileged position. I'm an academic: I know how hard it can be to see the system one serves as if from the outside, but to make the attempt is a mark of critical honesty.

  19. I am someone who simply doesn't feel the presence of God in my life. That I think is the typical state of the nonreligious person, and corresponds to what I assume is the feeling of a eunuch about sex. The eunuch knows that sex is important to many people, but he doesn't have any feeling of that importance. Sex doesn't exist for him. God doesn't exist for me.

    Not atheism, maybe rationalism.

  20. Posner: "You cannot convince a religious person that there is no God, because he does not share your premises, for example that only science delivers truths. There is no fruitful debating of God’s existence."

    Anyone you disagree with on any issue does not share your premises. If debating with people who do not share your premises is not fruitful, then no debate is fruitful.

    If a theist does not share your premise that science and reason are the only methods of achieving truth, then you can ask him to formulate a conception of another method and ask him to provide evidence that it does indeed yield truth. If he can, then good for him- we would all learn something. If he cannot, then he has not supported his claim that such a method exists. In either case, such an exchange would seem to be fruitful.

  21. I'm sorry that you've come out of the closet on religion, because I had entertained the hope that President Bush might appoint you to the Supreme Court rather than the ideologues and hacks I have heard mentioned. Not much chance of that now.

  22. Brent writes: "This is not the case. The words "atheist" "agnostic" and "theist" are not all points along the same line. "Atheism" and "theism" are two sides of the same coin. They deal exclusively with the presence or absence of god-belief in a human being, not the presence or absence of an an actual god."

    How about this:

    An atheist can be someone who believes that God (Yahweh) might exist (along with Hera and Apollo, etc.) but has no good reason to think "He" does. Hence he has no positive belief in "God."

    An atheist can also be someone who has the positive belief that there is no God – based perhaps on the existence of unnecessary evil (tsunamis :-).

    The former meaning is often, erroneously, in my view, termed agnosticism, while only the latter is termed atheism. Since neither is the "belief in" God, they both seem to be forms of atheism – they are the lack of "God-belief" as you say.

    Perhaps Posner is an atheist in the former
    sense – the more reasonable form of atheism in my view- though he seems to charcterize it in more "existential" terminology.

  23. Foreign decisions are one thing. Foreign detective stories, another! You have to admire Justice Scalia's recent reference to the "Canon of Canine Silence" in response to the Court's majority use of Arthur Conan Doyle's "dog that didn't bark" in statutory construction case.See
    Koons Buick Pntiac GMC v. Nigh, Slip Op.11/30/04, Scalia dissenting.

  24. On the question of a debate between parties that don't agree on premises:
    In the current political climate it seems that a debate in that sense is frequently impossible since neither side is willing to clearly state them. For example, there is widespread suspicion on both left and right that John Kerry actually favors gay marriage despite what he says and that George Bush does not favor civil unions despite what he says.

  25. " My understanding of Nietzsche's dictum that "God is dead" is not that it is a metaphysical statement, a statement of atheist doctrine, but that it is a statement that God is as if dead, to educated Europeans of Nietzsche's era."

    i.e., a metaphorical statement? I'd like to take this further to say that my understanding of Nietzche's extended essay "God is Dead?" is as a lament that Western Civilization is broken. The cause is the schizm between Science and Religion. The moral authority of the Church in the Medieval period rested on the unity of the Neo-Platonist Ptolemaic scientific view and Christian metaphysics. Bruno, Galileo, Kepler, and Copernicus undermined that unity, Darwin put a spike through it's heart. We are still suffering from the effects, obviously. He also warned that a society without a unified moral purpose is prone to subjugation by the Will to Power; the amoral struggle for dominance between competing incompatible world-views. A non-remarkable prescience of the rise of fascism, Stalinism, religious fundamentalism, and neo-conservatism.

    As a Buddhist, (as you say a non-theistic but also a non-dualist religion) a follower of the middle way, I find no conflict in conceiving of Science as seeking to describe reality and Religion as seeking to explain reality in a mutually interacting, on-going, evolving, human process.

    As a Buddhist, I understand morality as arising directly from experience and not depending on epistemological arguments whether utilitarian or transcendental. After all, even a dog will respond to kindness. This is not to say that this evolving moral sense is not effected for good or ill by the persuasiveness of rational discourse, just that whatever conclusions one comes to are meaningless until put through the mill of actual practise, and what principles one accepts as explaining the outcomes of practice are only evolving signposts on the pre-existing moral terrain and not the terrain itself. This suggests that, in the context of our fractured society, morality is necessarily a matter of personal development, and what cultural ethos exists is necessarily only a rough concensus of individuals at differing levels of development, following differing, often seemingly exclusionary tautologies. It is because of this apparent confusion that extremism has its appeal.

    As for the Theist/Atheist argument, the most rational view I've ever heard is that of D.T.Suzuki:

    "If you believe in God, I don't; if you don't believe in God, I do!"

  26. Hmm. I don't see how we are obviously "suffering from the affects" of the schism between science and religion at the dawn of the Enlightenment. Many people suffered under their "unity" too, perhaps even more. I also don't see that people or governments are less moral now that "God is Dead" than they were within the unity of the medieval period. I suspect this might an idealization of medieval life. I also think Suzuki's comment is rather silly. Basing your belief merely on someone else's belief, is simply the argumentum ad populum fallacy however profound sounding and koan-like it might be.

    I guess we think very differently!

    But that is what makes life interesting:-)

  27. T.H. Thank You for your comment. Is delicious.

    I don't mean to imply that I believe The Church was more moral in the Dark Ages. On the contrary, I believe the Enlightenment and Humanism have forced a positive evolutionary change in the moral behavior of mainstream Christianity. They no longer burn witches and heretics in the public square, f'r instance. I was specifically refering to their moral "authority" by which the transcendental metaphysical realm of church morality, e.g. "Obey God and go to Heaven; deny God and burn in Hell", could be seen in harmony with the current scientific view of the material realm. We are suffering now from the reaction of ordinary people's reasonable desire for moral certainty in the face of worldly calamity (again not to construe the desire for moral certainty with the result of greater morality). They are rejecting Science because Science has no way of addressing that need, because properly Science only describes objectified, observable, repeatable phenomena, not what it means to be a living, feeling, mortal creature for me right here and now, and you right there and then. Why should one care for another, a stranger?

    Yes! Precisely! Suzuki's statement is pure silliness. It's an ironic inversion of argumentum ad populum. It's just that from the Buddhist perspective argueing over God/not God is silliness itself. I mean, right now I am simultaneously holding God and God's absence in my mind; now I am letting them go. What's the big deal?

    Yes, I guess we do think very differently, but we both think with the same mind.
    That makes life fascinating.

  28. Luminous writes: "We are suffering now from the reaction of ordinary people's reasonable desire for moral certainty in the face of worldly calamity (again not to construe the desire for moral certainty with the result of greater morality)."

    Yes, we moderns can suffer from the reaction or need of people for moral certainty, just as the medievals suffered under the regime of moral certainty. We moderns can and do also suffer as a result of moral apathy and undue moral tolerance of suffering. There is no shortage of suffering either from absolutism or moral skepticism and relativism. We moderns will probably also destroy ourselves with the fruits of science. There is no good reason to think we will suffer more from religious fundamentalism than from nuclear physics and secular concerns.

    If Suzuki wants to say that arguing about God/No God is silly, that is fine, though, since neither you, nor he, have provided any support for this claim, there is no good reason to believe it.

    Just saying that "If you believe in God, I don't; if you don't believe in God, I do!" is still a fallacy, since it is basing your belief on what others belief. I would tell Suzuki to ignore what I believe, and think for himself.

    🙂

  29. Tony Hanson writes "If Suzuki wants to say that arguing about God/No God is silly, that is fine, though, since neither you, nor he, have provided any support for this claim, there is no good reason to believe it."

    Obviously. Equally obviously, there is no good reason not to believe it silly.

    I can't speak for Suzuki, but I think it would be rude of me to ignore what you believe. Likewise it would be rude to ignore those who believe differently. It would be dishonest to say I find all or any of the myriad positions on either side of the question either absolutely convincing or totally without merit.

    I do believe that conflict is a root cause of suffering. All my life's experience has shown me no reason to believe otherwise.

    I find it not unreasonable to imagine that overcoming conflict may lessen suffering. This is the hard part. Just a little levity could help.
    Or couldn't it?

  30. Luminous writes: "Obviously."

    So it is obvious you have no reason to think arguing about God is silly, even though you say it is. In that case there is no reason for anyone to believe or listen to you (or Suzuki) about this.

    Luminous: "Equally obviously, there is no good reason not to believe it silly."

    Even if there is no good reason not to believe it silly, it does not follow that you should think it is silly as you said you did. I have no good reason to believe you are not bald. That does not give me any good reason to think you are. If you want to express unsupported opinions, that's fine, as long as we recognize they are unsupported, and that you give nobody any reason to believe what you say.

    Also, it is not obvious that there is no good reason not to believe it silly. One good reason could be that people often make fallacious arguments trying to establish the existence or non-existence of god. Pointing out the fallacies shows the argument is not an adequate basis for the belief. Disposing of fallacious arguments is a contribution to knowledge since it paves the way for other approaches. Another reason is that such beliefs about God/not God are important to people and how they live their lives, and since what distinguishes humans from animals is their great capacity to reason, it is natural they they use this capacity in understanding such questions. It may indeed not be productive, but it does not strike me as something "silly."

    Luminous: "I can't speak for Suzuki, but I think it would be rude of me to ignore what you believe. Likewise it would be rude to ignore those who believe differently. It would be dishonest to say I find all or any of the myriad positions on either side of the question either absolutely convincing or totally without merit."

    It might be rude of you to ignore what I believe, but Suzuki says that his belief will be *dependent* on mine – that if I believe, then he will not, and if I don't, then he will. He should not make his belief dependent on mine. He might consider my views and others' views, but in the end, think for himself, and reflect and form his own belief.

    I agree that two contrary and opposing positions or arguments often have merit. In cases where they seem to have equal merit, I suppose it is wise not to take a particularly hard stand on one of them. But, I think there are also cases where one position is more reasonable than another.

    I also agree that conflict can cause suffering. But I think (with the Hegelians) that conflict and Sturm and Drang and Faustian striving can often give rise to the good, the beautiful and the true. (For example we can both learn something from our little dialectic here.)Could Michelangelo have painted the Sistine Chapel if he had not suffered?

    The *avoidance* of conflict and apathy and disengagement also often causes much suffering in the world, it seems. I cannot say whether conflict or the unwilligness to engage in some conflict, in order to prevent a geater evil, causes more suffering.

    Plus we cannot forget that suffering is not always bad. I imagine my wife will suffer when she delivers our first child in April.

    – In the spirit of levity, your Faustian friend,

    Tony

  31. In this reply Posner says “The government is run by a governing class consisting largely of professional politicians, civil servants, big shots from the private sector who take temporary jobs as senior appointed officials, and lobbyists and other representatives of interest groups. This class understands the issues. If it screws up badly, as it often does because of the intrinsic uncertainties of governance, it is punished in elections. In effect the people have a veto over their rulers, and this serves as an important constraint on runaway self-interest, exploitation, and corruption by our rulers. I do not think we would do better to have a government run by academics, which is the implicit model of government held by political philosophers, law professors, and the like. Would we really have done better over the last half century with Presidents Stevenson, Humphrey, a second-term Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis?”

    If the actions of the current administration are instructive in anything, it is the extent to which it disproves a view like this.
    For one, what constitutes “screwing up badly”? In Posner’s view it “screwing up badly” implies public recognition of the screw up and the resulting election “boot”. Well then, as this administration shows, one needs only to prevent the public from having information on the actions of the government to avoid a screw up. This does not, in any way, prevent runaway self-interest, exploitation and corruption by our rulers. What's more, I believe there is a strong case for arguing the current administration—elected and appointed officials, and advisors—have made it a primary project to insure the dominance of their political party for the foreseeable future (though I will not make that case here), not by showing the screw-ups of their opponent party but through other demonstrable means. (And, I believe they have been successful).
    Would we really have done better over the last half century with “Presidents Stevenson, Humphrey, a second-term Carter, Mondale, and Dukakis”? I suppose it depends on what you mean by better, but I’m not willing to say we would have done worse. More importantly, I am almost certain that we would have done better over the past four years, and would do better in the foreseeable future if we elected officials who work for what “political philosophers, law professors, and intellectuals” say we should—namely a world with the least amount of conflict, the highest efficiency, and the greatest abundance and best distribution of resources. In any case, I think we have good reason to suspect that the workings of American politics and democracy are changing substantially.

  32. I believe that the comments Judge Posner makes in point nuber 5 deserve closer examinateion, as they get at the heart of his argument. I commented previously that I had a hunch his view was no longer applicable. I believe that the op ed piece Brian Leiter lists on his blog today illustrates this point exactly. I am working on a more thorough examination of this point and will post it on my blog later today.

  33. I believe that the comments Judge Posner makes in point nuber 5 deserve closer examinateion, as they get at the heart of his argument. I commented previously that I had a hunch his view was no longer applicable. I believe that the New York Times op ed piece on torture Brian Leiter cites on his blog today illustrates this point exactly. I am working on a more thorough examination of this point and will post it on my blog later today.

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