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    The McMaster Department of Philosophy has now put together the following notice commemorating Barry: Barry Allen: A Philosophical Life Barry…

Applying Twice to the Same Programs?

Brian Leiter

An undergraduate student writes:

I’m in a small and unrenowned state school, with wonderful but unrenowned philosophy faculty. I’ve been given the impression that, not coming from a typical feeder school, I’ll need to prove myself outstanding in every way to catch the attention of the top phil mind / phil cog sci programs. My grades are top notch (4.0), my GREs are good (1600), and I expect strong rec. letters–though the signatures on the bottom of most probably won’t have the sort of cachet that moves mountains. However, I fear my writing sample is not going to be where it needs to be this time around.

And so the short of it: If I apply to my top programs this year and meet disappointment, have I put myself at a disadvantage trying again with those same programs next year, with a more professional piece of writing? Is it poor form to present myself twice to beleaguered admissions committees? Finally, if I put off applying anyway this year, and pursue an overseas / non-academic opportunity, does this weigh against me at all? In other words, do philosophy B.A.s go stale in the same manner as philosophy Ph.D.’s?

I’ve gotten many questions like this over the years, so this student’s situation is not anomalous I suspect.  Philosophy BAs certainly don’t go "stale" in the same way as PhDs, though someone too many years out from undergrad will likely present the question, ‘Does this person remember enough philosophy?  Is s/he serious about philosophy?"  But this student’s question is more specific, and here it would be helpful to hear from philosophers with experience in admissions.  How do "repeat" applicants fare?  My anecdotal impression is that there is a fair amount of turnover in admissions committees, but not total turnover:  in other words, there is an institutional memory in the form of faculty who are on admissions committees several years in a row.  If that anecdotal evidence is reliable, then it’s fair to say that applying two years in a row back-to-back is not a great strategy.  Comments?  I’d ask faculty to post under their own names, but students with experience may post anonymously, as long as there is an e-mail and IP number I can verify (neither will appear).  Thanks.

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24 responses to “Applying Twice to the Same Programs?”

  1. matt

    I applied to several programs twice in a row (a couple three times in a row) and did quite well with it. Of the three programs I was admitted to in the end, two I had applied to more than once.

    Reply
  2. anonymous please

    Experience from someone who did exactly what you describe:

    I made my first round of applications while still a senior in college, without a great writing sample and when my letter writers still didn't know me terribly well. I was rejected everywhere I applied.

    I tried again the following year, after graduating, with a substantially improved writing sample and (so I'm told) much more knowledgable and enthusiastic letters. This time, about half of the programs to which I applied were repeats from the previous year, and half were new. Nearly all of the new programs admitted me. Nearly all of the repeat programs rejected me again. (One of the rejection messages even alluded, apologetically, to the fact that it was my second time trying.) But not all of them – the program where I wound up was one of the repeats.

    Based on my obviously anecdotal experience (and conversations with a few people who've had similar experiences), I'd say that applying twice does do some damage to your prospects. (And it's ridiculously expensive.) On the other hand, the experience of applying may teach you some lessons about how to put together a good app. (One or two very kind admissions chairs gave me a bit of feedback with my initial rejections.)

    Above all, your second application must make very clear why you're worth a second look. So unless you are confident that your app could substantially improve in the interval, it's probably best to wait. A more marginal improvement will probably be swamped by the stigma of having been previously rejected.

    Reply
  3. Manuel Vargas

    I can't speak from the side of a Ph.D. admissions committee, but I know I'm glad I applied a second time (one year later) to a very competitive graduate program that didn't take me the first time around. The second time I applied I did get in to the grad program that hadn't taken me the year before. So, it is possible to get in a second time around.

    At least two things were different the second time around, besides a different applicant pool and different committee (which are not always minor changes): (1) my writing sample was stronger and (2) I had a longer track record in philosophy. I started at a community college and I'm told that such courses tend to get discounted by admissions committees. So, at least in my case, it wasn't until the second time around that I had 2 years of philosophy coursework at a 4 year school for an admissions committee to look at.

    Reply
  4. UGrad

    I asked this question to the director of an admissions committee after being unsuccessful. I was told that it does not really matter and, that two of the students accepted that year had applied previously. Of course this also came with the caveat that without additional information (conferences, publications, some individual grad courses) the outcome would likely be the same. It also seems that how "close" you get to being admitted matters, as more faculty are likely to have read your file if you just missed the cut. In this case, there may be fairly incidental reasons for a denial (ie. your standing to the other students as opposed to your application itself).
    Please however, take this with a grain of salt, as it was just my experience with one program.

    Reply
  5. Richard

    I applied to one of the best grad schools in the world twice. I was rejected frst time around and got in the second.

    Reply
  6. (another) Matt

    I applied twice to philosophy programs, and the second time around got into a top-3 program which I had applied to the first time. (My situation was a bit different than the questioner's, because I hadn't majored in philosophy as an undergrad, and did two m.a. degrees to make up ground.) My sense is that applying a second time can improve your chances if (i) you were among those in the final group but just missed the cut your first time, or (ii) the committee has different faculty on it, some of whom may be more favorable toward your writing sample – though it's hard to determine if either or both of these applies to one's own case.

    But also, of course, it can hurt if your application and writing sample are largely the same as the year before, and/or the reviewers remember that they denied you last year.

    One common thread that emerges from some comments above (and from my experience) is that those who get in the second time around typically had greatly improved the writing sample (or perhaps submitted a different one altogether, which ends up being better than the first).

    As for one of the specific questions, it seems to me that it doesn't really hurt to take a year off to do something else (unless of course it will mean that you can't put in the same effort into applications and polishing your writing sample during that Fall!). I know of several people who are in top programs who took a year off after their B.A. and then had very competitive applications.

    Reply
  7. MA student

    To the worried undergrad student: Why not go to Tufts? If you got a 1600 and have a 4.0, you'll get in for sure. And if you're as smart as you should be with those numbers, you'll excel there and then have an excellent shot at getting into Rutgers (which is where I assume you want to go with those interests). At the very least, you'll have all of your first year at Tufts to develop a stellar writing sample, which seems to be the part of your application that you're most worried about. And, under the assumption you're making that you don't have that good of a shot to get into the top PhD programs this year, you only would lose one year overall by going to a terminal MA program. I'm sure that I'm biased because I'm currently taking the route that I'm recommending, but it seems like a no-brainer to me.

    Reply
  8. Gualtiero Piccinini

    Two points:

    1. There are a couple of months before most deadlines. You still have time to refine your writing sample.

    2. Waiting another year is not going to damage you in any way. It might actually make you a stronger graduate student in the long run, by giving you a break from academic activities and some extra experience.

    Reply
  9. Craig

    Re: Gualtiero's comment, the first deadlines are about 11 days away, and the bulk of the deadlines are in the next six weeks or so. So the heat is on!

    Reply
  10. LK McPherson

    Sorry to be disagreeable, but comments from "MA student" are very misleading. The inquiring undergraduate would indeed seem to stand a good chance of being admitted to Tufts (given the grades and scores + unrenowned school). But few Tufts MA students, including those with a similar profile, have developed a "stellar" writing sample during their first year. Also, the notion that high undergrad grades and high scores reliably translate into great success at Tufts is false. (Btw, the Tufts MA is a two-year program.)

    More disturbingly false is the notion that students who do well at a strong undergrad or MA program have an "excellent shot" at getting into a top PhD program of their choice. Too many applicants at all levels–undergrad to PhD (or even MA), PhD to tenure-track job–greatly underestimate just how competitive the environment in philosophy has become. My hope is that a dose of reality might cure some of the resentment that has made the profession a hunting ground for scapegoat artists.

    Reply
  11. Christopher Morris

    Applicants who are eliminated in the first round of evaluations probably stand little chance of being admitted if they reapply a year later. However, unsuccessful applicants who were either on the short list or in the top group might easity be accepted the following year. Given how extraordinarily competitive graduate programs now are, many unsuccessful candidates are in the top 12-20% of applicants. At this point lots of contingencies play a role in the final decision, and these can change from year to year, even with no change in the personnel on the committee (e.g., in one year a program only has n funded slots but the in following year n + 1). This may not be helpful to the unsuccessful candidate who cannot find out where he or she stood in the rankings.

    Of course, applicants often prepare stronger applications the second time around. And one of the problems for admissions committees is making decisions based on little evidence. Reducing uncertainty is advantageous.

    Reply
  12. anon Grad Student

    This may be a bit tangential, but I don't understand why an MA in philosophy is so often and cavalierly recommended on this website, given the astronomical costs of these programs. Is the assumption that all applicants to philosophy graduate programs have recourse to unlimited personal funds, and so the cost of an MA program is simply not worth mentioning in these discussions? This read to me like a log of overprivileged prep school kids deciding on which Outward Bound program to enroll in before taking their unpaid internships. According to the Tufts International Center, which supplies information on expenses for international students, one year of graduate study in the school of arts and sciences runs 56,919$, with extremely modest living expenses included. Do most applicants to philosophy graduate programs really have access to 114,000 to supplement their applications? If so, it seems that philosophy more than any other humanities discipline is skewed towards the economically advantaged 1% in the United States (other humanities disciplines do not have such prerequisite MA programs). Recommending someone get an MA in philosophy in order to pursue graduate studies is a little bit like recommending a person go to boarding school in order to get a college degree, except that boarding schools at least offer some financial aid to some people. Is data on this information available?

    Reply
  13. Brian Leiter

    Perhaps I am mistaken, but I had been under the impression that the reputable terminal MA programs offer financial aid, similar to what PhD programs offer: tuition waivers and stipends, often connected to performing TA duties of some kind.

    Reply
  14. Anon MA Student

    Here's some data for anon Grad Student. Some MA programs offer TAships, which include tuition remission and a stipend (plus, in the case of UW-Milwaukee, benefits). The stipend is modest, of course, but perhaps doable.

    The MA does a couple of things for you (at least): (1) It allows you to interact with faculty who are likely more well known than your undergrad profs., who can in turn provide you with letters that may pack more of a punch. (2) It allows you to fill in some gaps with coursework in areas not previously studied (to help round you out) and to develop better as a philosopher at a more advanced level.

    A third benefit, at least for me, is that it's a chance to test the waters. If you decide after two years in an MA program that you just *have* to go on to the PhD, then you've only made yourself a better applicant (assuming, of course, that you've done well there). If, on the other hand, you decide that you'd rather do something else (for whatever reason), then you've saved yourself the embarrassment and heartache of dropping out of a PhD program.

    Those are just some thoughts on MA programs. To answer the original question, I'd suggest waiting a year to apply to PhD programs in order to work on the sample. Or, go for the MA now. Or go for both MA and PhD programs. If you get into a MA but not a PhD, then there would be two years between your PhD applications instead of just one.

    Reply
  15. Another MA student

    In response to anon Grad Student:

    I don't deny that Tufts, in particular, is very expensive, but it's not quite as bleak as you suggest. Tuition is around $36000, but this cost covers the entire degree, which takes two years. In addition, Tufts offers some financial support with (variably generous) tuition remission and TA-ships.

    MA programs come up a lot on this website in response to inquiries from uncertain would-be students. And I imagine that it's these very students who might benefit from MA programs. So I don't think the recommendations they receive are cavalier!

    Reply
  16. Tim O'Keefe

    anon Grad Student:

    What you're assuming is that everybody going to these MA programs is paying full freight; often that's not the case. (Also, I think tuition at Tufts isn't typical for most M.A. programs.)

    As DGS of Georgia State's M.A. program, I actually do have some data on our peer group (the terminal M.A. programs mentioned in the Leiter report). Most (although not all) of them offer some incoming students 2-year funding packages; students receiving funding almost always receive a tuition waiver, along with subsidized health insurance (although the student still has to kick in some money). Average funding is about $10,000 a year.

    So if you're going to an M.A. program with funding, and then you get accepted into a Ph.D. program, what you're probably looking at is an extra 2 years of study–maybe 1 if you get transfer credit for a couple of courses and your previous preparation allows you to get through the Ph.D. program a little more quickly. Since most stipends at most M.A. programs are low–sometimes pitifully low–most people will have to take out at least some additional loans to cover living expenses during that extra 2 years. But the cost won't be anything like your estimates.

    Let me add that the M.A. is *not* anything like a prerequisite for further graduate study. But for a lot of people–e.g., folks coming from little-known schools, or folks with some philosophy background but a major in another discipline–getting an M.A. can help their Ph.D. prospects considerably.

    Reply
  17. Paul

    I completed my terminal MA three years ago, but at that time none of the MA programs offered financial aid "similar" to what PhD programs offer. Tufts, if I remember correctly, offered some tuition relief, but the program was still very expensive. At UW-Milwaukee (where I went), the department worked hard to guarantee teaching, find extra teaching, and secure tuition reductions/scholarships for its students. But, the financial burden was certainly more significant than the one taken on when I moved on to a PhD program.

    As with anything, prospective students need to look at their individual financial circumstances and determine whether an MA program makes good sense. I can attest, however, that most of the people at UW-Milwaukee were not "overprivileged prep school kids deciding on which Outward Bound program to enroll in before taking their unpaid internships." Most worked hard to secure teaching and scholarships (with the help of the department) and lived frugally. Most probably could have been making more money doing something else, but doing the MA did not strike me as financially irresponsible, or only available to people with wealthy parents.

    Reply
  18. Jamin

    When I applied to MA programs in philosophy, I made a point of applying only to those that offered funding. I ended up at Northern Illinois, where I had an assistantship that provided a tuition waiver and modest stipend, which allowed me to live comfortably without going into debt or dipping into any savings. Other top programs offer similar packages, which are comparable to many PhD funding packages. My classmates and I in no way resembled "overprivileged prep school kids deciding on which Outward Bound program to enroll in". I agree that going into debt for graduate study in philosophy, at either the MA or PhD level, is generally not a good idea. But there are plenty of funding opportunities for MA students out there, and many benefits for spending some time earning one. (I second everything Anon MA Student says about the benefits of getting an MA.)

    Reply
  19. Eric Schwitzgebel

    On the question of whether it hurts to apply to the same program twice: As Brian points out, there is substantial turnover in admissions committees. Also, I doubt that I would distinctly remember an applicant from a previous year unless that applicant was one of the close-call applicants who almost earned admission. And I would certainly be willing to take a second look at such a close-call applicant in a subsequent year, especially if there was a substantial change in the application, such as an improved writing sample.

    Reply
  20. Lisa Shapiro

    Another note on the costs of MA programs. From the remarks above, and my own experience at our program, I sense a pattern. MA programs at public institutions can be an affordable way to test the waters. You principle cost is an extra 2 yrs of your time. At SFU, we do not admit MAs we cannot support with TAships, and we can (currently) support students in Fall and Spring for two years. It is harder to support students over the summer. I believe that the current stipend is about CAD5500/term with health benefits. We are also currently allotted 4 graduate fellowships, which we award through a competitive application process to students enrolled in the program (we tend to try to support students over the summer with these). Faculty with research grants also occasionally hire MA students as research assistants. Unfortunately, because of the BC provincial government policy, we do not offer tuition remission, but tuition for grad students is about CAD1500/term. While this is not anything approaching a reasonable income, it is manageable to go through the program without going into debt. I suspect that other Canadian terminal MA programs are very similar.
    We see the benefit of the MA program as helpful in rounding out students to help them get into very good PhD programs, on the one hand, and as helping students to determine whether they really want to go on in philosophy, on the other — just what was outlined by others above.

    Reply
  21. a

    i applied to most of the top 15 programs during my senior year of college (at a small liberal arts school), and was rejected from nearly all of them (with one exception well outside the top 15). i ended up doing a terminal masters at an unranked program, during which time i produced a different (much improved) writing sample, went to conferences, and generally improved my CV. after finishing the master's, i applied to the same fifteen programs and was accepted at virtually all of them, and am currently at a top program. during my campus visits the second time around, i mentioned to some faculty that i'd applied before. absolutely no one remembered my application (i should add that i have a pretty unusual last name, too).

    i credit my success the second time around entirely to doing the MA. i definitely wouldn't recommend going into significant debt for it, but it made me a much stronger applicant. it also, as one of the comments above notes, gave me access to faculty who were able to advise me extremely well on applications, help me craft my writing sample, etc. finally, when i did get to my PhD program, i was much more prepared in terms of both coursework and knowing what to expect from a grad program.

    my experience is not unique; several people from my MA program who had been initially unsuccessful at applying to higher-ranked programs went on to do PhDs at excellent programs.

    finally, i've met many grad students at top programs who took several years off to work in unrelated fields after finishing their BA, so based on this admittedly anecdotal evidence, i don't think it would hurt.

    Reply
  22. Transferer

    Is there anything to be said for avoiding the cost of a terminal MA program by starting at a low-ranked PhD-granting institution (that offers financial support) with the intention of transferring to a higher-ranked program after a couple of years of study?

    I take it that even low-ranked research universities will have faculty of the same caliber as the top MA programs, so the student's letters will be of the same quality as those from good MA programs.

    I'm actually in the process of doing this now, and the faculty at my program has been very supportive. They realize the realities of the job market are such that PhDs from our program are at a decided disadvantage when compared to others. The faculty at my program want the best for us and are glad to help in any way (even, it seems, if what is best for some of us is to try to transfer elsewhere).

    Is there a downside to transferring out of a funded PhD program rather than going through an un- or under- funded MA program (I mean, in terms of being offered admission to another program)?

    Reply
  23. Drew Kukorowski

    Another brief comment about MA programs. Prospective students should be looking at the placement records of MA programs (UW-Milwaukee has model webpage). When I applied to Ph.D and a single MA program three years ago, I did not look at the placement records for MA programs. Had I done so, I probably would have applied to a place such as UW-Milwaukee or Virginia Tech in addition to Tufts. (I would also like to see the Gourmet Report incorporate placement record into its "rankings" of terminal MA programs.)

    Also, the cost of Tufts appears to be exaggerated slightly in this thread. Students only pay tuition in the first year of the program (I did not know this when I applied, as the webpage is fairly cryptic) and often receive a considerable scholarship to reduce that tuition. Also, Tufts does an excellent job of providing its MA students with TAships that pay very well.

    Reply
  24. SB

    I applied twice to graduate programs. With a BA (and mediocre GRE scores) from a lower tiered state school, I didn't receive any serious offers. With an MA from a middle tiered state school (and much better GRE scores), I had numerous offers, and from the same schools I applied to originally. I chose to attend a top 20 PhD program, but had an offer from a top 10.

    The second year in my PhD program, we admitted almost ALL MA students to the exclusion of BA students, and at least 50% of every entering class has been MA students. I asked why and the grad advisor said that MA students are more likely to complete the PhD program. And I believe at this point, the numbers bear that out.

    Reply

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