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Job seeker with one of three letters from MA advisor?

Brian Leiter

A PhD student writes:

I am an ABD who will be going on the job market in the fall. Like many graduate students I began my graduate studies in a well-regarded terminal MA program. Two of my current letter writers are professors who are members of my dissertation committee, and the third is a well known philosopher who was the director of my master's thesis committee. I am curious whether this is sort of thing is normal or whether search committees might see it as a strike against me (perhaps because someone might wonder why I couldn't get three letters from my current institution).

Any advice would be helpful.

My instinct is that the only scenario in which this could seem odd is if the MA faculty member really has no expertise in the area of the PhD thesis *and* there are other faculty at the PhD program with expertise in the area who aren't writing–then, I suppose, someone might draw an adverse inference.  But even then, it seems to me a remote worry.  Apart from that, it seems to me perfectly fine.  What do readers think?

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11 responses to “Job seeker with one of three letters from MA advisor?”

  1. Gabriele Contessa

    While, as Brian points out, there might be perfectly legitimate reasons for including the well-known philosopher from his/her MA program among his/her references, I'm afraid that the move might be misconstrued/misused by some SC members. They might start asking: "Why didn't s/he include more references from his/her PhD granting department or from external people on his/her dissertation committee? Is it because no one else would agree to write a strong letter of reference for him/her?" My advice to job seekers would be: try to avoid doing anything that can be misinterpreted by some overzealous SC member or used by someone who happens to like some other candidates better than you as a rationale for choosing the other candidate. I know–easier said than done.

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  2. John Basl

    As someone who was recently on a search committee ('11-'12), I'd say that were I looking at the file it wouldn't raise any flags except in the circumstance that Prof. Leiter mentions or where the MA director wasn't familiar with work done over the course of your PhD. Two of my letters came from professors I had as an undergrad, but I had worked closely with them on various projects while I was in grad school. I don't think this hurt me while I was on the market ('10-'11). That said, while on the market I would have worried endlessly about such an issue since I was working under the assumption that many search committees didn't behave rationally. If possible, why not send more than three letters. I think that I sent 6 (and asked that the person handling my letters order them so that my committee member's letters came first).

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  3. Job Marketeer

    Two of my letters are from professors in my Ph.D. program, and my third letter is from my thesis advisor in the program where I got my M.A. I've gotten 9 tenure-track interviews over the last two years. So, I really don't think I've been hurt by the third letter from my M.A. advisor. I would advise the student to go ahead and stick with his or her plan. One thing people on SCs should be aware of: when you are in a Ph.D. program, especially a relatively small one with not too many people in your area, it can be very difficult to develop the kind of professional relationships with professors that would yield a proper letter of recommendation. What I mean is – it can be difficult to do this in high quantity, with three or more professors. If the M.A. letter is good and shows clear knowledge of the candidate's work, a SC member would have to be *really* "overzealous" – as Contessa put it – to see this as a strike against the candidate. (Of course, no instance of absurdity is too great to surprise me in this crazy thing we call the philosophy job market.)

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  4. Kenny Easwaran

    From my experience reading files, I wouldn't see any problem with including a letter from an MA advisor, and it could often be quite helpful. Letters from professors that know different aspects of the candidate's work are always helpful, as are letters from professors at multiple different universities – it's good to have people who aren't just evaluating the candidate on the basis of the same cohort of students.

    The one point I would make though is that I don't recall many files that got to the level of very detailed consideration that had exactly three letters. If there are more people that might write a good letter for you, then by all means include them as well!

    I don't know whether anyone specifically thinks negatively about candidates that only have the minimum number of letters, but having additional letters is at least correlated with being strongly prepared for the market, and it may have significant value in giving more positive information to the committee.

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  5. anon grad student

    Kenny Easwaran's comment is interesting, since it contradicts advice I've received. I'll be on the market next year, likely with 5 or so letters (I haven't asked anyone officially yet), and yet I've been told that if a place asks for 3 letters don't send more. Is this true of non-research schools, of none, or what?

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  6. Keith DeRose

    I think it's a good thing for a candidate to have a letter from an outside expert ("outside" meaning here: not from the PhD-granting program). A former M.A. program adviser/teacher could be such an outside expert. I think that the letter should be written primarily as coming from an outside expert, not as from a former M.A. teacher/adviser. Of course, the recommender can mention that she was an M.A. program teacher of the student, and can mention what a wonderful M.A. student the candidate was, but if that's the focus of the letter, perhaps with just a little thrown in at the end about how the candidate seems to have continued to progress and what good work they seem to have done more recently, then I think that might be bad news, esp. if it's one of only three letters. But if the former M.A. program teacher really is up on the area in question, has kept up with the candidate's work, and can really add something about the candidate's current work and how it fits in with the current scene, it's all good.

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  7. doris

    I agree with consensus that a letter from an MA adviser is fine. With Keith DeRose, I think that a letter cast as that of an "outside expert" familiar with your work is better than one cast as that of a formative teacher.

    I'd add the advice that it's best to have the customary three from your own department before getting the outside expert; less than three can give an odd appearance, to the effect that you were not very active around the dept., or otherwise failed to impress. ("S/he didn't write 3 good seminar papers in grad school?") I thereby depart the advice of anon grad's advisers regards a three letter limit.

    I'd be curious to hear what others think, but the 4-6 range sounds right to me. More than 6 or 7, and the effect can be "diluted," esp. since it is unlikely that all letters will be equally strong and well put together. (Higher numbers might be appropriate for senior hires, but that's the hiring department's problem.) Surrounding the excellent, detailed, letter from your adviser with a slew of cursory, polite, letters will be of little help — or worse. It is critical that the letters be from people who *know your work* and can be bothered to go into a bit of detail about it. (I recall a file stuffed with a dozen short letters from well-known people who knew little of the candidate's qualifications — I think one was a golfing buddy — and the effect did not inspire confidence in academic ability, though it was impressive evidence of "networking.")

    It goes without saying, but work closely with your adviser and placement director on this very important part of your file, and don't be afraid to ask forthright questions.

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  8. Eddy Nahmias

    I think the advice here would be similar to the advice I give our MA students applying to PhD students, who sometimes ask if they should use an undergrad teacher as a letter writer. If possible use these older references as a 4th or 5th letter, but if they will be a better 3rd letter than a current professor, there's no problem using it. I've never heard anyone complain about a job candidate's having 4-5 letters (rather than the 3 requested). Personally, I take it as a good sign, especially if they are all strong and at least one of the letters is from an outside expert. If you get a letter from an MA advisor, just make sure s/he can and will indicate that s/he's kept up with your work and finds your trajectory impressive.

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  9. ChrisTS

    This depends, of course, on whether applicants think that "three letters of recommendation" means 'only three' or 'at least three.'

    I cannot imagine discounting an applicant who submits 3 letters unless the advertisement specifically states "three or more." Even then, I would think that holding 'only three' recs agaisnt an applicant would be unfair, if not illogical.

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  10. Anon ABD

    OP Here…

    In response to Kenny Easwaran's point about the cumulative value of having more than three letters. Many of the jobs I have seen advertised not only do not mention whether more than three letters is acceptable, they often use electronic submission systems that will only allow three letters to be uploaded. Then again, thus is typically true (in my experience) of small state schools and SLACs. I am wondering whether research jobs might require more information to form an accurate portrait of the researcher's interests and abilities, thus necessitating 5 or 6 letters while smaller teaching focus schools require less information? Is there a difference in culture? I would simply not be comfortable sending more than three letters unless the advertisement called for it.

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  11. Anon ABD

    To clarify…some of the online forms I have seen, have spaces for CV, Writing Sample, Cover Letter, Transcripts, and maybe one to three additional documents (I assume for rec letters though i have always had mine emailed or sent direct from my writers, obvisously)

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