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PhD admissions, writing samples, and MA programs

A philosopher at a top twenty department writes:

I am reading graduate applications this winter with a few other faculty in our department, and we are all noticing two trends that are both heartening and disturbing, and both of which make the job of graduate admissions even harder. 

The first trend is that an increasing number of applicants are applying with an MA in Philosophy either in hand or in progress. It's very close to 50% of our applicants now.

The second trend is that the writing samples are getting better.  As a general rule, they are on more up-to-date, focused topics; they cover the literature more successfully; they show greater dialectical skill in responding to moves in the literature; and they are far more polished in prose and presentation.  They are, as a group, far closer to what I expect to see at the level of decent journal-submissions.

That's great!  Lots of young people are doing better work! Hurray!

The problem, however, is this: we have to decide which 20 out of 400 applicants should be given slots in our program. We want to accept the most promising students from every possible background: all we care about is that they have the potential to be really good philosophers.

And with the new, more professionalized writing samples, it is getting harder and harder to tell which students are capable of doing good work, and which are simply getting the advantage of a lot of preparation.

Again, there are two problems: first, we are having to decide between students with BAs and now a *very* large number of students with MAs, most of whose WS's are, on average, better than the WS's of senior undergrads.

Secondly, it is very hard to know which polished, professional WS's are the result of a student with uncommon ability, and which are the result of intensive cultivation by faculty (a problem not restricted to MA programs, but exacerbated by them). 

I don't want to bash MA programs: they have an important role to play in the profession and in the world.  But in the eyes of many students, what they are selling is an increased shot at entry into a top PhD program. That means that the faculty of the MA program may face pressures to help the student improve their dossiers and writing samples, in ways that do not wholly reflect the student's own abilities.

Every one of us has had a moderately good student who responds well to suggestions for revision, but does not add anything beyond what was suggested. You look at the revised paper and it is better, but it is better exactly because of comments that you, the professor, made in writing or in conversation.  When you work with such a student on successive revisions of a paper over an entire semester or a year, the proportion of the paper that reflects their abilities continues to shrink.  It's becoming a better paper because it is being written by you, not them. We have all seen it happen.  

What is especially vexing about this problem is that, ten or twenty years ago, it felt as though the WS was the last untainted credential.  What, after all, can we base our decisions on?  GRE scores reflect all sorts of distracting socio-economic factors, as well as being unavailable for many foreign applicants. The pedigree of the institution is a better index of family wealth than of the student's ability. Grades vary a bit, but most applications feature good grades. The recommendations must be taken seriously, but we also know that "the best student I have taught in my career" at one school is not as good as "the best student I have taught in my career" at another school.

So my attitude has always been that there is no substitute for putting your head down and plowing through the writing samples, attentively.  There, finally (I used to think) you are getting an unfiltered view of the student's own abilities.  A really good writing sample should outweigh an obscure third-rate institution, or a bad day on the standardized tests, or a faculty member who didn't like your attitude. 

That's what I used to think.  But this year I am coming to think that the rot has set in with the writing samples as well. If I voted to admit the best 20 writing samples, they would nearly all come from MA programs.  That means that they would nearly all come from people with the family wealth to allow them to take two more years of unpaid leave to polish their writing samples with the help of faculty. 

I don't have any good answers here, beyond the obvious: I try to look for holistic patterns of writing, letters, grades, scores, and institution that make a coherent picture of a student who deserves admission.  But at the very least, I would be curious to hear from other old-timers whether they too feel that the writing samples have become more professional.

And has anyone taken the step of actually *discounting* their weighting of writing samples that come from MA programs?  I.e.,  giving more credit for an inferior WS coming from a BA student, than for a better WS coming from an MA student?

I must admit my reaction to this phenomenon is a bit different:  it's quite clear that PhD programs were, in the past, rejecting lots of students who, in fact, would have excelled had they had the benefit of more philosophical education and guidance.  That students are submitting better writing samples is a credit to the rise of terminal MA programs (if they are populated only by the wealthy, I have yet to see the evidence of that–some of them, like Tufts, provide too little financial aid, but many others provide a fair bit). 

In any case, it would be useful to know how many readers share my correspondent's sense of the situation, and how many share mine, or have a different take altogether.  Signed comments will be preferred, but I understand that philosophers may not want their comments to prejudice their department, so as long as there is a valid e-mail address, comments without a full name in the signature line will be considered.

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50 responses to “PhD admissions, writing samples, and MA programs”

  1. I'd like to emphasize Brian's parenthetical remark. I was admitted to several top MA programs a few years back, and most of them offered fellowships and/or assistantships which covered living expenses. I find it worrisome that the author infers that nearly all MA students come from wealthy families. In my experience, this is simply false.

  2. Prof. Leiter's correspondent wrote:

    "When you work with such a student on successive revisions of a paper over an entire semester or a year, the proportion of the paper that reflects their abilities continues to shrink."

    I strongly disagree. The ability to incorporate skilled philosophers' reactions into one's work is one of the most important skills a philosopher can have. (This is even more true if that philosopher is being evaluated on her ability to succeed in a Ph.D. program.)

    I imagine that over time, faculty doing admissions work will refine their skills in distinguishing the most promising work from that which merely looks professional. They will revise their senses of which properties of a dissertation signal which skills. Until then it might be hard to distinguish the very best candidates from the sea of very good ones–that's unfortunate, but there are worse problems to have.

  3. Two points:

    1. It's just false that MA students are typically "people with the family wealth to allow them to take two more years of unpaid leave to polish their writing samples with the help of faculty."

    2. When I work with MA students on successive drafts of their thesis or writing sample, the proportion of the work that's truly the student's own doesn't shrink. I don't write their papers for them.

    Now, it's true that I may come up with objections or other suggestions that the student wouldn't have on their own. So the student should probably have a more polished and sophisticated paper than they would have if there hadn't been rounds of multiple feedback and revision. And people evaluating writing samples probably should take this into account when doing head-to-head comparisons of writing samples from people from MA programs vs. people applying their senior year of college. (And for students applying straight from undergrad institutions, you should take into account differing backgrounds too.) But being to incorporate feedback into your own work is a crucial skill, and one that lots of students don't have. We don't expect PhD students working on their dissertation or revising papers for submission to journals to do so without feedback.

  4. Two things strike me as odd. First, don’t you think that the quality of the “best” writing samples in the past were also likely to be the products of “intensive cultivation” by faculty? I applied to PhD programs over fifteen years ago from a liberal arts college and I got a *lot* of feedback from multiple faculty on my writing sample. It seems to me that MA programs enable more students from diverse backgrounds to get that the same sort of feedback than otherwise would. How does this “exacerbate the problem”? Doesn’t it instead level the playing field?

    Second, I am confused by the idea that one could come across a writing sample whose quality is what you would "expect to see at the level of decent journal-submissions” but still doubt whether its author was “capable of doing good work”. I mean isn’t that the best sort of evidence you could have that she is capable of doing good work? (Maybe the idea is that she ought to be capable of doing good work without anybody else’s help? But why is that standard important?)

  5. "And has anyone taken the step of actually *discounting* their weighting of writing samples that come from MA programs? I.e., giving more credit for an inferior WS coming from a BA student, than for a better WS coming from an MA student?"

    I think this would be significantly unfair to MA students. In many countries outside US it is highly expected that students would already have an MA before applying for a PhD program. In the way that the correspondent wrote, it seems that MA's WS should look suspicious, or should be taken with less credit than a BA's WS at face value.

    Since there are a few MA programs with funding, it seems that they are a plan B for students who couldn't get into a PhD program in the first round of applications. This doesn't mean that they are "people with the family wealth to allow them to take two more years of unpaid leave."

  6. First off, I'm happy the wealth point has been addressed. Beyond that, though, I'm torn. In my current program, there are at least a few very engaged faculty who encourage us to polish the hell out of our writing sample. In a vacuum, I could see why this might be problematic, but at the same time the department is full of people who 1. are interested in putting us through the gauntlet in every single class 2. offer laser-focused seminars and 3. offer really, REALLY good feedback on every paper. Even if my writing sample gets an insane amount of attention, it's not as if the attention is undue, and it's not as if this program or any other isn't making the students better who put in time and effort across the board.

  7. I can speak only about the MA students at Northern Illinois, and about the kind of assistance they receive in developing their writing samples, but I would be surprised to learn that NIU is unique among MA programs.

    First, as already noted, it is simply false that our students come from families with the wealth to support two years of study. Our students are heavily reliant on the assistantships and tuition waivers the university is able to offer. In the rare cases that a student does not need financial assistance, it's practically always because of personal savings from having worked between college and our MA program.

    Second, over the past decade, our students have become better and better, and they have become more and more professionalized. I often can't believe how polished are the papers I receive from first-year-students in my seminars. They're just way better than they used to be, and not because of help from me or my colleagues. They come into our program better and more professionalized than the students we had a decade ago. I really don't know how they're getting that way. But the polish that this anonymous philosopher notes in writing samples from MA students is, in our case at least, in large part a function of greater polish at the entrance to our program.

    Third, I, for one, never really help students with their writing samples. In some cases, those writing samples come from my seminars, but I have never given more than just a few comments on those papers. Some of my colleagues do spend more time giving comments than I do, but in no case are they, in effect, writing the papers for students. What has happened in recent years is that our graduate students have organized their own in-house brown bag series, at which they present their writing samples *to one another* and get feedback *from one another*. (Faculty are invited by them to attend, but the events are scheduled at times that we're all having dinner with our families.)

    Fourth, I agree with Dissertator's remark about the ability to incorporate feedback, and I wonder whether the anonymous poster ever receives comments from colleagues on papers before sending them to journals. If so, does the percentage of the paper that is due to the anonymous poster's abilities shrink as a result of the peer commentary? It seems to me that getting feedback on papers before sending them *anywhere* is part of the profession.

    Finally, the faculty at our program don't "face pressures" to help students improve their writing samples. We certainly do want to help our students learn philosophy and learn how to write good philosophy. But it doesn't serve our long-term interests, as a department, to help students develop writing samples that are not accurately reflective of their own abilities. If we did that, PhD programs would soon stop accepting our students, since they'd discover that they're just not as good as their writing samples led their admissions committees to believe. As it is, there are many PhD programs who accept our graduates year after year.

    And, again, I very much doubt that NIU is unique among MA programs.

  8. Sabrina Bano Jamil

    Perhaps the bigger issue here is this: most programs with graduate students put really very little consideration into proper undergraduate teaching. I was a BA/MA student at the same institution, and although I liked my BA more than MA, my MA was better structured (pedagogically). I don't say this to rip on my alma mater, since I think they are, in this respect, quite normal. But it is telling to me that despite having following their curriculum as an undergraduate, I was totally unprepared for graduate school — at the same institution. The issues were less academic. My undergrad profs were strict graders, generally good lecturers, and sufficiently available to their students. The issues were more curricular (the program was structured as it allowed me to graduate my BA without certain core knowledge any graduate student would need, but with lots of choice and freedom to take special topics courses instead of core classes), and in terms of coaching/mentoring (I had very little idea of what graduate school and professional philosophy were going to be like, and thus was not prepared for it). Admittedly, there were some failings that were my own, but this is why coaching and mentoring are significant at the undergraduate level. The faculty were not inattentive, but many undergraduate advisers are not trained to advise students on anything being selecting courses and following a curricular map, and signing off on a registration form. (This is also detrimental to students who may not know how to directly seek out help or are floundering in other ways.)

    In my experience, undergraduate philosophy programs vary wildly in their intensity, curricular organization, and attention to coaching and mentoring students. Some of my peers in grad school had lots of individualized mentoring and received very good advice from their professors, on a par with the kind of attention good graduate schools ought to provide. Their curricula covered canonical material. Others came from entirely unsupervised programs, with very little knowledge at all, no coaching and mentoring, but got into grad school on "raw" talent, chance, or other factors.

    So, the point is, the problem the author notes (MA students benefit over BA students from better preparation) would actually be equally true (or even more even if MA programs were entirely eliminated (BA programs differ wildly, and so by chance, some students receive better education than others). Truthfully, the lack discipline-wide standards and best practices for undergraduate education, combined with a culture of disregard for undergraduate teaching (which is often treated by research philosophers as little more than humdrum work that is best left to lowly graduate students) mean that the problem would be even worse MAs were eliminated and all we went on was BAs. I don't think all institutions disregard undergraduate teaching this way, I think that graduate programs are more uniform in these regards than undergraduate programs.

    This isn't to say that they are all very close, but just that the space of difference ranges over a smaller area with graduate programs, as opposed to undergraduate programs. I have taken graduate coursework in philosophy at 3 different institutions. They were all quite different in non-academic respects, but I generally found the graduate education offered to be marked by the same fundamental attitudes and conventions (good and bad alike). The level of attention I received was, I think, more or less comparable at all three places. I doubt the same could be said if I took classes at 3 different undergrad programs.

    Perhaps this isn't surprising, given that my entirely livelihood is undergraduate teaching, but I think the core of the problem presented here is that differences the author notes in MA versus BA writing samples is mostly indicative of a lack of disciplinary standards and best practices in undergraduate curricula. Disciplines that have more discipline-wide undergraduate standards (such as natural sciences, for instance) are probably less likely to run into these kinds of problems at the stage of graduate admissions.

    I am beginning to think that taking an MA *should* be a disciplinary best practice. It allows students entering the field directly from undergrad to have a go at grad school before committing to a Ph.D. program, and to get a sense of both whether they'd be good at it, and whether or not they want to continue to the greater commitment and the academic lifestyle. It corrects for the differences present at the undergraduate level, and it might help reduce the time-to-degree problem faced by many Ph.D. programs where Ph.D. candidates rest in ABD status for additional years. As the change is already taking place (more or less) naturally, why not simply commit to it?

    Another improvement could be making sure that undergraduate advisers are permanent members of faculty (the job is often given to a graduate student, and this is a really bad idea), and receive training on advisement (which is usually provided by institutional professional development/training departments). If undergraduates are likely to receive good coaching and mentoring, then perhaps the need for an MA education would be eliminated, thus reversing back to the previous trend of direct-from-undergraduate applicants.

  9. Current PhD Student

    I have no suggestions for the correspondent on how to resolve this problem. I would encourage undergraduate advisors, however, to disseminate this information in the future to students who are considering applying to PhD programs in philosophy. Undergraduates in philosophy are becoming more aware of the annual increased competitiveness for PhD admission. But I think the information provided here can really put things into perspective for them. (I know I would have benefited from such information!) One would hope that having this information handy would lead undergraduate applicants to consider the terminal MA en-route to a PhD to be a likely possibility (and I don't mean to suggest that this is bad thing). Considering this likely possibility, applying to a fair amount of terminal MA programs may be a wise strategy.

    A problem that may arise as a result is an annual increased competitiveness for terminal MA admission. I think this is already starting to happen. If I recall, Georgia State received 120+ applications last year (Tim O'Keefe can confirm or deny this). Over time, MA programs will be just as competitive as some PhD programs are now! And the luck factor will begin playing a role in MA admission as the number of applicants goes up. But at least those competing for a spot in an MA program will be on equal footing. From what the correspondent describes, it seems that the majority of undergraduate applicants don't stand a chance. Even the most talented undergraduates are still disadvantaged. In order to give oneself a chance to pursue a career in philosophy, undergraduate applicants should seriously consider terminal MA programs alongside a handful of PhD programs. This should be emphasized by undergraduate advisors. Not discussing this information with students would be irresponsible on the part of the undergraduate advisor for the reason that students may end up wasting a lot of money on application/GRE fees along with their time that could have been used more wisely.

  10. MA student in Boston area

    I'm finishing an MA in Philosophy at a top MA program in the Boston area. I don't have a wealthy background. Quite the opposite. Many of those who aren’t receiving full tuition remission are working 20+ hours a week to offset the cost of the MA. Many are taking out loans. Two of my friends work more than 30 hours a week to pay their bills. They aren’t receiving weekly checks from their wealthy parents.

    I hope that admission committees won't make too many assumptions about me. One assumption would be that I've now had six years (instead of four) to prep an amazing writing sample. That may be true for some, but it's not true for me. My undergraduate background is quite weak. The MA program has allowed me to 'catch up' with undergraduate seniors who were privileged to attend elite universities with strong departments of philosophy. So in fact, I'm counting on admission committees not to hold me to a higher standard on account of my master's degree.

    I'm proud of my writing sample. I worked very hard to produce it. It was written only by me.

    Please, if you're among those deciding our fates, don't engage in this kind of speculation about our backgrounds, privileges, connections with faculty, etc. How could that possibly be helpful? Just treat us as you would other applicants.

    BL COMMENT: I just want to add that I strongly concur with this sentiment.

  11. The Onion title for this "concern" would read: "Evidence That Hard Work Contributes to Success Sends Philosopher Into Moral Quandry."

  12. I'd like to second David Buller's points about NIU; they apply to GSU too. For large terminal MA programs, placement is an iterated game, not a single-shot game, so we need to be concerned for our reputation. Each year for the last 4 years, GSU has had between 9 to 12 students applying out to philosophy PhD programs. If I had Chucky the MA student act as a ventriloquist doll for my ideas, and polished his writing sample up to a high gloss, and he promptly auto-destructed on arrival at an excellent PhD program, I'd be ruining things for future students who would actually do well there. So pedagogical and placement goals happily coincide. We want our students to get into excellent programs, but by actually helping develop their philosophical skills (in addition to things like making sure that they choose a suitable slate of programs to apply to, that their SOP isn't goofy, etc.).

  13. Undergrad Applicant

    To speak on behalf of those applicants with BAs only, it does seem to be a brave new world when half of the applicants have previously had (and paid for, if only in opportunity cost)advanced training. I, for one, think it's a shame that the prevailing trend is towards requiring students to achieve a (sometimes expensive) master's degree prior to applying for the PhD, particularly when these credits typically do not transfer. Can you imagine spending 9 years working towards your degree? As a woman, this seems like a huge obstacle for my ability to remain in a program long enough to attain my professional goals. Further, it is absolutely yet another barrier for those of us that do not have the luxury not to work, even if there is some funding available. This is an additional two years (assuming one even finishes) until we reach the already iffy job market. It almost reads to me like self-sabotage for the whole profession. Why are we making it so hard on future philosophers?

    Additionally, in my department, which was home to a terminal MA program, undergrads had to fight for the resources provided to grad students. Terminal MA programs have a serious stake in graduate placement, and this makes it a tough place for a BA student to break through. Just my thought.

    BL COMMENT: My impression is that large numbers of applicants go straight from the BA to the PhD program, and that the MA programs are largely serving students who did not have undergraduate philosophy majors, or who went to schools that rarely send students straight from the BA to a PhD. I'm happy to stand corrected by any current MA program faculty, but that is my impression.

  14. "And with the new, more professionalized writing samples, it is getting harder and harder to tell which students are capable of doing good work, and which are simply getting the advantage of a lot of preparation…

    …it is very hard to know which polished, professional WS's are the result of a student with uncommon ability, and which are the result of intensive cultivation by faculty (a problem not restricted to MA programs, but exacerbated by them)."

    The suspicion that this person has of work that is "too good", and the distinction he or she makes between this and work that truly shows "uncommon ability," betrays a common way of thinking in the profession, I think. It's the thought that philosophical talent is native; you either have it or you don't. I think we'd do well to rid the profession of this way of thinking.

  15. MA student in Boston area

    I want to point out that the 'Undergrad Applicant' comment (#13) about what MA programs mean to the profession, though sincere and well-taken, may be off topic. There's the urgent question of what to do now with applicants who have MA degrees.

    On the tangent, though, the rise of MA programs is a symptom of something else happening in philosophy. So if there's a problem to address, it's not the rise of MA programs. The rise of MA programs is one way that students (particularly those who have weaker undergraduate training) are coping with competitive admissions.

    I don't think MA programs made philosophy admissions too competitive. I think the competitiveness of philosophy admissions made MA programs.

  16. The original correspondent wrote:

    "I don't want to bash MA programs: they have an important role to play in the profession and in the world. But in the eyes of many students, what they are selling is an increased shot at entry into a top PhD program. That means that the faculty of the MA program may face pressures to help the student improve their dossiers and writing samples, in ways that do not wholly reflect the student's own abilities."

    It seems as though s/he thinks that this "increased shot" simply comes in the form of a well-polished application dossier, and this strikes me as entirely untrue. In my case, I came from an undergraduate program that didn't have a philosophy department. I learned how to do philosophy from a bunch of theology Ph.D.'s. I had no interest in theology, but I loved philosophy. The only problem was that, due to in large part to my lack of training, I simply was not a good philosopher. I never would've been successful at a Ph.D. program with only my B.A. in hand. Fortunately, I was able to get accepted at a well-respected terminal M.A. program (which I borrowed an obscene amount of money to pay for while also working 30 hours a week to support my family), but even by the time I finished my M.A. I still wasn't a very good philosopher. I got shut out of Ph.D. admissions that year and the following year. All told, it took me two years of M.A. work and two additional years of working tirelessly to improve my philosophical ability, while also being in the workforce full time, before I was finally at a point that I was a good enough philosopher to pursue a Ph.D. In the following year's application cycle I was accepted to five different Ph.D. programs, and I'm doing very well in the program that I decided to attend. I would be very surprised if a case like mine was all that uncommon.

    My point is that people develop into good professionals at different rates. Terminal M.A. programs are aimed at aiding this development not at admitting students and spitting them out with admission-friendly dossiers. So, it strikes me as unfair to assume that the WS is simply something manufactured by the M.A. faculty rather than the result of more developed philosophical ability and a more professional mindset.

  17. A few thoughts:

    1) I got my BA from an state school with a terminal MA, then an MA from a different state school. I'm now at a top-20 PhD. I got much more feedback on my writing sample at my BA than at my MA. And I get much more faculty feedback at my PhD than at either earlier school. But in no case did I ever have a professor come close to doing most of the work for me. I can't imagine a professor having the time or inclination to do so.

    2)I think the MA did better prepare me for grad school than my BA, and certainly for applications, but that's mainly because I learned much more about the professional side of philosophy there. I would think that this is a good thing.

    3) Responding well to feedback is a professional skill that should be rewarded; the odds of a student being very good at incorporating comments but otherwise not very talented strikes me as very low, since the same skills used in judging feedback are also used in other ways.

    4)The kind of natural ability the original poster is looking for can also be grounds for discounting. Many of my peers are naturally smarter and more philosophically astute than me, but struggle for other reasons. One big issue is that the naturally talented have often never struggled in school before, and don't realize how much work good professional philosophy requires. Those who have to be trained as philosophers (like me) have learned the hard way that persistence is often at least as important as insight. The folks I've seen wash out of grad school didn't do so because they weren't smart enough, but because they lacked the work ethic or the organizational skills or the like (or, of course, they became more practically wise and decided to pursue better options).

    5) The application process is surely harder on applicants than on committees. I know that the application process is fraught and unfair, but I cannot believe someone one suggest that even quality work can be held against an applicant. One big factor is that PhD programs are taking fewer students, so there's downward pressure throughout. A 20-ish program now struggles to get students who would have been in a top-5 10 years ago, and a 40-ish program gets students who would have gone to a top-20. Even without MA programs, students are now applying more widely than they would have, simply because the odds are so stacked against them now.

    6) After several reads, the original poster's position isn't as bad as it first looks. His/her heart seems to be in the right place. Just wanted to point that out, as I'm sure many current applicants are tearing their hair out right now reading this post.

  18. Undergrad Applicant

    Re the BL Comment: My impression is that the applicant pool is getting better and better, and that the acceptance rate results in a shut out of quality students. These students are PhD quality, but end up in MA programs due to the 5-10% acceptance rate that is now all too common. While it may have been so in the past, I think it is a myth to say that MA students are still primarily from less known schools or did not have the philosophy background.

    BL COMMENT: I hope some current MA faculty or students will weigh in on this, since if this is a myth, it would be good for that to be known.

  19. I agree with many, and indeed most, of the criticism of the original question. But let me try to frame the issue in a more charitable light that gets at what is, I think, a very real problem: the need, in the philosophy profession, for more and more credentialing and a higher and higher bar to accessing the profession…a bar that doesn't correlate to the production of better philosophical work.

    I graduated with a BA not all that long ago (2005). When I graduated with a BA, the standard advice was this: A BA from a good philosophy program is a sufficient credential for admission to a good Ph.D program (though obviously you also needed other things beyond the credential – great grades/writing sample/et al.). An MA program was for people who had a BA from a poor department, or whose grades weren't top notch, or who only Minored in Philosophy and needed extra prep or some kind of remedial work. Now, not even 10 years later, it seems that an MA program has become a Ph.D entry requirement in virtue of the higher admissions bar.

    Overall, I'm not at all convinced that this is a positive change. I understand the old purpose of an MA program. Now, it seems that the student who would have been a prime candidate for an MA program a decade ago probably couldn't even get admitted to a good one today. So that student seems to have simply lost out, period. But, beyond that, I fail to see the point of making candidates who are clearly ready to start a Ph.D attend graduate school an extra 2-3 years. Often, students with MAs spend exactly the same number of years in a Ph.D program as students with BAs (that's certainly the case at The University of Iowa – where I did my Ph.D after a BA). The practical effect seems to be yet more unnecessary credentialing and hoop-jumping.

  20. A couple of points to note here, I think. First, there is a general concern that at every level–MA admissions, PhD admissions, hiring committees, awards committees, etc.–the writing samples used in the competition are not (enough) the work of the candidate in some cases than others. This leads the naive to despair, and the jaded to refuse to read writing samples (one of the most distinguished senior philosophers at my graduate program claimed he'd never read a job candidates' writing sample because it might be more the work of the dissertation director rather than the job candidate). In response, I say "welcome to the reality of defeasible evidence." What's new here, to your correspondent, is the rise in overall quality, eliminating variability that used to be present. But there was as much reason to worry when more variability was present as there is now. That's why any evaluation committee has to look at a broad array of input into their decisions, not hope to find one factor that can play surrogate for that larger task. That is, when your correspondent, in the past, viewed the writing samples of 10 or 20 years ago as "the last untainted credential," that perspective was probably naive, not formed in response to some evidence of who was getting help and who wasn't, but rather on the basis of the wide variability itself (which makes it much easier to decide who has promise.) Why should less variability create suspicion here? A (more plausible?) alternative explanation arises by noticing how much more professionalized all of philosophy has become, and conclude that more professionalized instructors tend to produce students with more polished writing samples.

    Second, the obvious solution to the better quality of MA writing samples is for each department to make a decision about what percentage of incoming students would be best for that particular department. Trying to figure out a discount rate for the more advanced applicants isn't a plausible (or fair) strategy, and having some vague guidelines about what a good balance between Bachelor's and Master's students is much preferable. The answer, for some, will be "we don't care, we just want the best, in terms of letters, gre's, writing samples, etc.." For others, there will be value found some less polished undergrads, since they'll be around longer and thus contribute longer to the graduate community environment, and a sensitivity to the difficulty of determining whether a more polished MA applicant is actually more promising that a somewhat rough undergrad might incline a department to want to reserve some spaces for each kind of candidate.

  21. Current applicant (no MA!)

    It does seem to be a problem that is spiralling out of control. In my native UK, for example, one cannot apply for a PhD program directly from a BA, and thus has to do a (an?) MA first. Yet, there is essentially no funding whatsoever for MAs (maybe a few thousand here or there, but you're pretty much on your own). Once you get to the PhD, funding is more forthcoming, but it is becoming increasinly hard to get there in the first place unless you're sufficiently wealthy to get through the MA. Eventually, British philosophy will be full of the rich.

    As for America – and I'm currently awaiting admission decisions – it is frustrating to learn how MAs are taking over there too (at least in the UK MA + PhD is only around 4 years, as opposed to 7+!). Surely escalation is inevitable: this years it's 50% MA apps, next year 75%, soon 100% and then people will start doing two MAs to stand out, and so on. Before long, doctorates and pensions will be dispensed simulatenously.

    The profession really needs to do something (ideally MAs only for those who either did not major in philosophy or for whom it is a terminal degree – although, of course, such a policy would be rather draconian to implement I suppose).

  22. How disheartening. You tell us that our writing samples are the most important aspect of our application and then you wonder why they are so good. I'm at a top MA program whose peers are getting into top 20 programs and the norm here (among competitive applicants) is finishing your coursework and then taking an extra year or more to polish your application while you continue to study and teach. It feels like we're already in a Phd program: we are in our late 20s building a career for ourselves, staying up on the current debates. Yes, it would take a top-notch undergrad (of which there are plenty) to hold a candle to the level of preparation we've received.

    I'd be curious to hear how MA students fair in terms of seeing their Phd programs through to the end. My first intuition is that we've shown that we're willing to make a very long-term commitment and we have a better handle on the field, but it could lead to just the opposite considering some of us could be in grad school for nine to twelve years to see it through. Any evidence on who is more likely to stick around?

    BL COMMENT: I should note that I do not believe my correspondent's view is the norm.

  23. Another MA student

    "Overall, I'm not at all convinced that this is a positive change. I understand the old purpose of an MA program. Now, it seems that the student who would have been a prime candidate for an MA program a decade ago probably couldn't even get admitted to a good one today. So that student seems to have simply lost out, period."

    This simply isn't true. When I got my BA a couple years ago, I was a history student who had only taken two upper-level philosophy classes, both with the same professor at a university with no graduate program in philosophy. I was totally unprepared to apply to a PhD programs let alone enter them. A story like that still accounts for more than half of the students in my program: too little background, went to a shitty school, felt closed out of the discipline because they only studied continental in undergraduate, etc.

    The bigger problem is what the original correspondent claimed:

    "That means that they would nearly all come from people with the family wealth to allow them to take two more years of unpaid leave to polish their writing samples with the help of faculty."

    Frankly, I find this idea both offensive and ludicrous. In fact, I think the opposite is much more likely: MA programs serve as a corrective for those who didn't have the opportunity to go to a good (and expensive) program for undergrad. Even at schools that don't offer full aid packages–mine is one of them–students end up paying significantly less for their entire degree than they would have for an unaided semester at a place like Harvard.

    While the question of whether or not the increasing prevalence of MAs in the field is a good one, I'm frankly horrified that anyone would even consider discounting the work of a student like myself because it is better. If I put out a quality writing sample, it will be because I managed to acquaint myself with the academic standards of philosophy and the literature I'm writing about in essentially a year and a half while working, teaching, and taking classes. Wealthy undergrads at high-quality institutions often only have to worry about the latter.

    In the end, I can only really echo what MA student in Boston area said:

    "Please, if you're among those deciding our fates, don't engage in this kind of speculation about our backgrounds, privileges, connections with faculty, etc. How could that possibly be helpful? Just treat us as you would other applicants."

  24. I am an unmarried mother with a one year old daughter. I worked and paid my way through undergrad, and am currently enrolled in an MA program which pays me a modest stipend and full tuition remission. I have no support from family members. I have a 3.9 undergrad GPA and a 4.0 in my MA program. I chose to pursue an MA in Philosophy because I was completely undecided as to what area of philosophy I wanted to specialize in, and I wanted to be sure that when the time came to apply to PhD programs, I would know which schools would be the best fit.
    "That means that they would nearly all come from people with the family wealth to allow them to take two more years of unpaid leave to polish their writing samples with the help of faculty."
    Nearly all? That is an enormous overstatement. I have neither family wealth nor privilege, nor do most of my classmates. I think my and most other MA students' decisions to get an MA reflect patience and an understanding of the need to know what we really want to do in Philosophy before plunging into just any PhD program. I live on a shoe-string budget, juggle my teaching, parenting, and academic duties, and know I have a long journey ahead of me before I receive my PhD. However, I decided it was worth the wait and the extra two years. Shouldn't patience and a willingness to put in an additional *1-3 years* of extra work be a valuable factor in considering admissions?

  25. I teach at the University of Mississippi, which offers one of the only terminal MAs in the region. Our MA students much more closely match those described in the comments section than those speculated about in the original letter: often coming to philosophy late or from BA programs without a tradition of sending students directly to PhD programs, not noticeably from wealthy families, and so on. In fact, our undergraduates who are the most PhD-ready are often those from wealthy backgrounds, which in our very poor region seems correlated with college-readiness, and a gap in work produced perhaps remains after four years; the MA is, if anything, an equalizing tool that allows poor and middle-class students the time and preparation they need to be ready for a PhD (at least at MA programs like ours where tuition waivers and assistantships exist).

    In addition to the excellent comments and questions above, I want to add that we now have more then a decade of widely available advice, often written by members of PhD admissions committees, about what is needed to prepare a strong PhD application. These typically identify the writing sample as the most important component (or, as I often tell students, the most important component over which they have a great deal of control at the point they are deciding whether to apply). After many years of this advice being widely disseminated, there is now apparently a rise in the quality of writing samples. I'm not sure why this should be attributed to nefarious sources like MA professors providing too many helpful comments on potential writing samples. (To make that subtext text: I agree with many of the criticisms of the stated worry that it is bad for students to receive helpful comments or that this is equivalent to partial ghost-writing.)

    Let's distinguish two claims in the original letter. (1) It is difficult to distinguish the great from the good applications on the basis of writing samples because there are more great writing samples. (This is an interesting problem to which the author requested feedback.) (2) One of the factors contributing to the increase in writing samples is an increased insertion of the work of the professor, esp. in MA programs, into the writing sample of the student. I don't see why (2) is the reason singled out for the rise in great writing samples (among many possible reasons). I also don't see why MA programs are singled out in this regard. (Is the assumption that we are better educators than at BA-only programs? better at professionalization? better at packaging students? I doubt that the answer to any of the three is yes.)

  26. To follow up on Brian's comment on #13, plus #18: I understand that some nervous BA students applying to PhD programs are worried about the impact that competing with MA students will have on them. But, by and large, it's very difficult (not impossible!) for students with BAs from lesser-known programs to get into prestigious PhD programs, and this has been a long-standing pattern, not caused by the recent increase in the BA –> MA –> PhD route. See this post by Eric Schwitzgebel: http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2011/10/sorry-cal-state-students-no-princeton.html.

    Given this (IMHO, unfortunate) situation, terminal MA programs serve a largely egalitarian function, helping to (somewhat) level the playing field. Some PhD programs (like UCSD) have a large number of people from terminal MAs, but it's more typical for a PhD program to have a few MA students here and there, and then for the BAs to come mostly from either prestigious places, or at least places you've heard of. On the other hand, students at terminal MAs are often (though not exclusively) from lesser known places. I don't have the time to compile stats on all of the programs (and it's not always easily accessible), but here, as a snapshot, is UC-Berkeley and GSU for comparison. My guess is that neither is wildly anomalous for top-20 PhD or big terminal MA programs (NIU looks similar to GSU on this score).

    UC-Berkeley, former degrees: (A.B., Harvard University) (B.A., UCSB) (B.A, University of Toronto) (B.A., History, UC Berkeley,; B.A., PPE, Oxford,) (B.A, U.C. Berkeley) (B.A., University of Cincinnati) (B.A., UCLA) (B.A., Florida State University) (B.A., Harvard) (B.A., Mount Holyoke College,) (B.A., Claremont McKenna College) (B.A., NYU) (A.B., Harvard University) (B.A., Biola University; M.A., Texas Tech University) (B.A., NYU) (B.A., Stanford University) (B.A., Brown University) (B.A. Linguistics, University of Calgary) (B.A., University of Toronto) (B.A., Philosophy, McGill University) (B.A., Philosophy and Chemistry, University of Colorado) (B.A., University of Toronto) (A.B. University of Chicago) (LLB, BA, University of Cape Town). (B.A., Williams College, M.Phil., University of Cambridge) (B.A., Harvard) (B.A., Oberlin College) (B.A., Mathematics and Philosophy, Rutgers University) (B.A. Philosophy, B.S. Mathematics, J.D., Indiana University-Bloomington; M.A. Bioethics, New York University) (B.A., Oxford University; S.M., MIT) (B.Sc., Physics and Philosophy, University of Notre Dame) (B.A., University of Pennsylvania). (BA, UNC at Chapel Hill), (B.A., Kalamazoo College, M.A., Georgia State University) (B.A., Sarah Lawrence College; M.A., Brandeis University) (BA, Reed College; BPhil, University of Oxford) (B.A., New York University). (A.B., Harvard) (B.A., Arizona State University) (B.A., McGill University) (B.A. Philosophy, Yale) (B.A., Psychology, Philosophy, Columbia University). (B.A., Brown University). (B.A., Philosophy, Math & English, University of Colorado). (B.A., J.D., Yale University) (B.A., Columbia University). (B.A. Tufts University, Philosophy and Biology)

    Georgia State University, BA degree: Georgia State University; Saginaw Valley State University; Indiana University, South Bend; Portland State University; University of Massachusetts, Lowell; Indiana University; Georgia State University; National Univ. of Singapore; The University of North Carolina at Asheville; North Carolina State University; Providence College; The University of Akron; Xavier University; Boston College; Otterbein College; University of Alabama Huntsville; Rhodes College; Wagner College; Oberlin College; Purdue University; Bates College; Hood College; State University of New York – Binghamton; Tulane University; University of Pittsburgh; Georgia State University; Princeton University; Texas Tech University; Wesleyan University; Portland State University; University of Louisiana at Lafayette; Northwest Nazarene University; University of Chicago; Colgate University; Swarthmore College; CUNY Brooklyn College; UC Santa Barbara; UC Santa Barbara; University of Chicago; Georgia State University; Claremont Mckenna College; Merrimack College; Haverford College; Saint Peter's College; CUNY Brooklyn College; United States Air Force Academy; Belmont University; University of Michigan; Houghton College; University of North Carolina at Greensboro; California State University, Dominguez Hills; Ohio State University; Colgate University; Sarah Lawrence College; Connecticut College; Sarah Lawrence College; Swarthmore College

  27. Applicant with MA

    Brian wrote: "My impression is that…the MA programs are largely serving students who did not have undergraduate philosophy majors, or who went to schools that rarely send students straight from the BA to a PhD."

    I recently completed my Masters from a very good terminal M.A. program. I would say that the students in my cohort and neighboring cohorts (say about the last 4 or so years) generally fit this bill.

    BL COMMENT: If students could name the program, that would be helpful. If you can't without giving away your identity, then it's OK.

  28. After reading http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.ca/2011/10/sorry-cal-state-students-no-princeton.html I actually think a reasonably well funded MA is a great leveler. I imagine that people who go to smaller schools or state schools who now know that the prestige of their undergrad pretty much determines which tier of school you get in for PhD, (which seems to determine which job you get and after 2008 if you get a job at all)are going to MAs to "upgrade" their letters and finally get time to polish their writing sample. I imagine that if the top schools used to let in majority BAs that THIS was in fact more unjust since it seemed that they only let in people from prestigious private schools.

    People I taught at state schools usually do 5 courses a term AND have jobs and have to finish their BAs in 4 years (because they cannot afford to take more than 4 years of college). Having the time to write and rewrite an essay just doesn't seem to be in the cards for people doing their BA unless they are wealthy and can take a year off/ take 5-6 years to finish their BAs or were at a SLAC where they get the luxury of small classes and a lot of face time with Professors.

    An MA is probably the first time many people got paid to make time for their own work! Maybe we need MORE prestigious terminal MA programs who specifically recruit from public and smaller schools not less?

  29. Oh it's a myth. We all have undergrad degrees in philosophy. I can think of several that come from the likes of Berkeley, Stanford, UCLA, Chicago, and NYU. About half of our grad students fit the myth, but only a few of them end up applying for a Phd and they usually did major in philosophy.

    BL COMMENT: Which MA program?

  30. Undergrad Applicant remarked, "While it may have been so in the past, I think it is a myth to say that MA students are still primarily from less known schools or did not have the philosophy background." In response, Brian said, "I hope some current MA faculty or students will weigh in on this, since if this is a myth, it would be good for that to be known."

    Again, I can speak knowledgeably only about NIU, but I'd be surprised to learn that we're unique these days. A decade ago, pretty much every one of our students was from a less-know school or did not have an undergraduate degree in philosophy. Such students still constitute the majority of our student body, but a smaller majority than a decade ago. So it is not a myth. However, I do believe that Undergrad Applicant is right about the growing phenomenon of the better and better applicant pool. We see evidence of that.

    And I certainly hope that Brian is right that the correspondent's view is not the norm. Because, like MA student, I also found the original correspondence disheartening. I see first hand how incredibly smart our students are, how hard they work, how dedicated they are to philosophy, and how much they are sacrificing to try to get into a doctoral program that (they hope) will help them achieve a career in philosophy. They earn my respect and admiration daily with their dedication. If the correspondent is in a top-20 doctoral department, s/he is no doubt reviewing applications from some of these students. To read the correspondent write that "the rot has set in with the writing samples," which I know our students have worked very hard on, can be nothing but disheartening — to anyone with a heart, at least.

  31. Another MA Student

    I am an MA student at a department that offers financial support in terms of both fellowships and teaching assistantships. Our placement record indicates that many people who attend the program get in to top 20 schools and virtually all get in to Leiter ranked programs.

    First, all of us depend on the department's financial support in order to live. Before I chose my MA program, I visited several others and my impression was that, by and large, most MA students do the same. Second, the pressure to polish our writing sample comes less from our faculty (though they do emphasize this) and more from each other. We encourage each other, there is friendly competition, and we take it upon ourselves to familiarize ourselves with the most up-to-date literature. We want to continue doing philosophy, and we work extremely hard on our writing samples.

    One reason why students with MAs who apply to PhD programs may have such good writing samples is not just that we work so hard on them, but also that we have experience doing serious graduate work. Our seminars are focused, our professors ask us to do presentations in which we engage with recent literature, and our term papers are expected to be of exceptional quality. The expectations are quite high, and this forces us to become better writers. I think this is a great thing, and I would encourage anyone thinking about it to apply to (funded!) MA programs in philosophy.

    As for the concern that MA students submit papers that are heavily edited and in some loose sense "written by" our advisors, I couldn't disagree more. Any serious undergraduate should seek just as much advice from her or his professors and mentors as an MA student would. I think the polished quality of the papers is more directly a result of the training we receive in our MA programs.

  32. Current MA student

    I agree with many of the comments here. In response to Brian's question at #18, in my MA we have two students from Ivy League schools, one of whom did not major in philosophy and is many years removed from the undergraduate degree. The majority of the students are from no-name universities, at least as far as philosophy is concerned.

    I am grateful for the comments that have gone before; it is frustrating to read the original communication and think about the many hours I spent on my writing sample to apply this year. We cannot all go to Harvard and walk into a highly-ranked PhD program as though it were a birthright. How is the training at an MA different from the training one would receive to improve one's phil abilities in a PhD program? I sincerely hope it isn't the norm.

    I want to underscore one further point, somewhat related but very important. I think many, many students–especially those who come from no-name places and don't have advisers with recent experience in grad admissions—have no idea how competitive the phil grad admissions process really is. Most applicants from such schools are likely strong students who have received praise and positive feedback from their professors, but as we've seen, these students must square off against others who are far better prepared and who have a more realistic idea of what they are up against. I certainly didn't understand the competition two years ago; I ended up at an MA, and hope to do better this time around. During this admissions cycle, many students will learn the same lessons I did then. The competition for the spots at top-20 schools is beyond fierce, and an acceptance requires razor-sharp skills and at least a bit of luck.

    In the meantime, since we applicants cannot change anything about the process, we play the game and get an MA while waiting to turn the tables.

  33. I just want to concur with Tim O'Keefe and a couple of other commenters who suggested that the ability to seek out and incorporate feedback into writing samples is a *good* thing. Many of the most successful people I know in the profession (and went to grad school with) are precisely those people who possess the interpersonal skills and drive to seek out help and feedback. If these skills often help people succeed at the professional level — and I think they do — the fact that someone demonstrates them in an MA program is, if anything, a reason to prefer the candidate, not discount their work.

  34. Mark Stephen Eberle

    Not to be "that guy," but does this seem like a pretty transparent admission that the top, top schools privelege undergraduate "pedigree" over actual academic ability to anyone else?

  35. In the 3-10 range of the PGR.

  36. Current applicant w. MA in hand

    I am afraid I do not fit neatly into any of the student-categories that have been outlined above. I was a philosophy major. I knew during my third year of undergrad that I wanted to pursue doctoral studies in philosophy. I am not from a wealthy family. I received significant amounts of financial aid throughout my undergraduate years (at a large state school not known for its philosophy program, let alone any of its grad programs in the humanities). I should also note briefly here that it was my impression coming out of a large state school with no grad program in philosophy that I should pursue an MA because those with BAs from Ivy, top small lib arts colleges, and other places known in the rankings, had a much better chance shot at being admitted than I did. So I am afraid I do not sympathize with current applicants with BAs from such highly regarded places who worry about the MA bug. In reality, you had the start, and forced us to catch up.

    Anyways, I am now coming off a 1 year MA program in which I excelled, a program I did not enter for the standard mythologized reasons of 1) not being a philosophy major, 2) having bad grades and being a less-than committed undergrad, 3) wanting to be acquainted with the lit, etc. Furthermore, I took out a loan to finance my MA year because contrary to assumption, I am not wealthy, nor is my family, and my MA year was not just me kicking around the college library and taking seminars because I had the money, nothing better to do, and some intellectual itches I felt like scratching at no personal risk.

    For better or worse, I look at my MA year as a gamble, or perhaps a business decision. I took out a loan to help finance my studies because I felt that, if I were to be successful, I would be in an excellent position to be admitted during this application season. It was not the sort of thing where I felt I needed to get a taste of grad studies to see if they were for me. I KNEW I’d be applying to PhDs immediately after my MA was conferred. But, with the path I took, I am now applying with a much better writing sample, from a university with both an MA and PhD. program that are well-enough regarded in our world, and with letters from professors who work directly in my areas of interest. This latter advantage was something I did not have as an undergrad. So, in a nutshell, what I am saying here is that I applied to MA programs for the same reasons people apply to PhD. programs and treated my year as year one of a PhD. This path is perhaps non-standard, but it is the one I took.

    So, re: the assumptions that may or may not be made by admissions committee members about the meaning of MAs in 2014, when you look at a situation like mine, it is pretty clear to me that no committee member could predict the circumstances that saw me enter an MA program and so, like others have said, let’s go ahead and continue the practice of not assuming anything about the applicants—stick with what is on the table in front of you in your decisions, please.

    And just a quick note on the relationship I had with my supervisor during the writing of my MA thesis: throughout the summer, he looked at maybe three drafts of various chapters of my thesis, before it was finally complete, and gave me nothing but short comments, and questions in the margins, none of which were worded in an imperative form that saw me revising my paper to specifically include his words of advice. In fact, much of his revisions came verbally, in the various meetings we would have, after which I could internalize what he said and take it into account as I continued writing. We arrived at what was a great thesis topic together, but the thesis was all mine, and I am sure he’d be adamant in claiming that he had very little to do with the end construction.

  37. I did my MA at Texas Tech from 2008-2010. I knew three years worth of students personally. From what I can recall, I'd say it was about 50/50 philosophy BAs to not, maybe 60/40. It was also about 50/50 students who were really interested in doing professional philosophy vs. not. These two divisions did not neatly overlap: there were successful PhD applicants among the non-BAs and vice versa. Among those that did have philosophy BAs, I think almost all of us came from lower-tier programs. We also had a number of non-UK international students.

    I should also add that the training I got at Tech was very good, but not at all like the original poster described. I got lots of helpful feedback, but not the sort that could be easily or mindlessly incorporated into a new draft. The biggest difference between my BA and MA training was that the latter was attuned to how difficult the application process (and the profession in general) really is; at my BA, they were still operating under the old rules where being reasonably smart and motivated was sufficient for acceptance somewhere.

  38. Benjamin A. Smith

    Surely this is related to the more general phenomenon of Credential Inflation. "Colleges are turning out more graduates than the market can bear, and a master’s is essential for job seekers to stand out…" I imagine the same goes for PhD seekers as well.

    "The Master's as the New Bachelor's": http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/24/education/edlife/edl-24masters-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  39. master's in hand

    well, this is a terrifying look behind the curtain of graduate admissions.

    this skepticism over applicant's authorship/editing of Writing Samples seems rather unfair in some cases. many MA program faculty, including the one I'm coming out of, don't have the resources or time to help a student polish a WS for applications. I received feedback on my thesis during my defense, but my panel certainly did not have the time to help me revise any of it during the period before my applications were due (which is also inconveniently grading season for them).

    I worked hard on my WS. Alone.
    If there's doubt about an applicant's hand in polishing their own work, then admissions should contact us about it.

    I'll finish also citing the MA student in Boston area said:

    "Please, if you're among those deciding our fates, don't engage in this kind of speculation about our backgrounds, privileges, connections with faculty, etc. How could that possibly be helpful? Just treat us as you would other applicants."

    Ask us if you're so skeptical.

  40. I’m attaching my name to this comment because this has really gotten my hackles up.

    A lot of really great things have already been said, but I want to address a very deep prejudice against MA students that I see popping up again here – the idea that we are somehow “less than” because we didn’t get straight into a PhD program. There are, as people have pointed out, many reasons for why someone doesn’t get directly into a PhD program, one of the main being that the applicant pool is so competitive. If you are, as I was, coming from a small, relatively unknown school with advisers who didn’t (and had no way to) realize the incredible level of competitiveness that now exists, there is an excellent chance you will be shut out from PhD programs no matter how good you are. But I have had many people over the years say – with no irony and to my face – “Really?! You went to an MA program first? But you’re so good!”. The assumption, or rather what is outright stated, is those who are good or have real talent don’t need to go to MA programs first. This is simply false.

    This strand is again picked up here, as the original poster assumes that the MA students are having substantive parts of their papers written for them or are beneficiaries to incredible hand-holding. Because of course, the thought seems to go, if they were really good at philosophy and capable of producing good work on their own, they wouldn’t have ended up at the MA program. Anecdotally, I have seen the hand-holding of the sort the original poster is worried about at the undergraduate level, and not the MA level (though I must say that my own undergraduate institution is beyond reproach here!).

    Others have pointed out how wrong the assumption is that those of us who were living well below the poverty level (on beans and not much else) were at the MA program because we are rich – quite the opposite. In fact, if we’re worried about wealth unduly influencing admissions, the place to look would be those coming straight from undergraduate programs rather than MA students. Students who get into graduate programs straight from undergrad often come from premier undergraduate institutions, which are traditionally heavily attended by the wealthy. This is not to say that all students that are undergrads at top 20 institutions are rich – but a high percentage of them that are. And they have access to (and comments from) world-class philosophers who know exactly what looks good on a graduate application. If I were to worry about students merely parroting the comments of their professors (and there are many reasons I don’t think I should worry), I would turn a critical eye to students coming from these premier institutions.

    I should be clear – I don’t think that the worries of the original poster heavily infect the dossiers of applicants on the whole. But if I were worried about the sorts of issues the original poster is, the place to start my investigation would be at the undergraduate, rather than MA, applicants. To cast aspersion on MA students because they have worked hard and their papers seem “too good” is to demonstrate the prejudice that has haunted MA students for ages.

  41. Post-MA PhD Applicant

    The post's comment on terminal MA programs being for the wealthy is off-point. Schools offer assistance, students take out loans. If acceptance is so difficult, why are we surprised when applicants have committed over a year to the process? This is the position we've been put in by the state of the field. The existence of MA programs helps overcome Ivy League undergrad educations that actually provide an advantage based, in many situations, upon wealth. The flipside features the depressing fact that acceptance to a top twenty program from anything less than an elite undergraduate institution is now nearly impossible.
    Moreover without significant mentoring on the application process and one's sample, I'd go as far as to say an applicant will be throwing money down the drain practically speaking. Staggering competition has diluted the process of meaningful comparison amongst top applicants. Here's to this year hoping I win a coin flip.

  42. To echo a previous commenter, here in the UK, in the last 8 years or so of looking (early on in undergrad, during time out before MA (to work and save!) and thereafter), I don't recall seeing a single PhD that did not require a bachelor's and a master's degree.

    Interestingly, in the same amount of time of looking in mathematics, statistics, and physics (side interests), I've found it most common to require only a bachelor's, with the next biggest majority saying a master's is preferable, and the minority requiring a master's.

    I have no data but I was led to believe that the funding body under which postgraduate philosophy falls in the UK (funding for students I mean) has the least amount of money and the largest number of subjects and applicants to cover. And that money is, so far as I have seen, almost *never* given to people getting master's degree (in the UK).

    I also understand some funding for philosophy PhDs in the US is the norm? As far as I know, funded PhDs in the UK are the minority.

    Happy to be corrected, as ever.

  43. I am a bit confused wrt the concern that in the course of providing feedback to the student, the writing sample would become more of a reflection of the professor's work than the student's work. It's plagiarism to take another person's argument and pass it off as your own. The proper thing to do, as fas as I'm aware, is to insert a footnote thanking the source for the suggested line of criticism, if it is not one the author originally came up with. If the feedback is just helping the author get clearer on the author's original argument, then depending on the level of input, it may or may not be appropriate to thank the professor. Are grad students not held to this standard?

  44. Matt Hernandez (UG)

    I want to echo Mark (comment #34), that this discussion seems to be disheartening from the point of view that if one (like myself for instance) comes from an unknown state school, their competitiveness into top programs is greatly diminished. And this is not due to their abilities, but due to something else entirely that may not be relevant. Though an MA program may definitely improve an UGs abilities, what if their abilities were already good enough to start a doctoral program? Isn't that student then wasting their time in an MA program to some degree? These questions are of some concern for me, as I will be applying for grad programs come Fall, this is a fairly selfish point. Overall, there does seem to be a silver lining: the standards for the profession are rising, which means we will hopefully see better philosophy being done (or at least that's what one would hope the bar raising would mean).

    I do have one question for future commenters: What is the effect of having a terminal MA on your CV when applying for jobs post-PhD?

  45. In reply to Leiter's comment at 18: I'm currently attending a terminal MA program. Of those who are in the program, I can't think of any that attended a prestigious undergrad institution. Most (all?) of the students come from undergrad institutions that almost no one has heard of. I also can't think of any who have wealthy families. However, most do seem to have an undergrad degree in philosophy, but not all.

    (Brian, my email address should help you identify the program.)

  46. Jonathan Jenkins Ichikawa

    My anecdotal experience confirms the suggestion that has been floating about, that the BA -> MA -> PhD track has become much more standard than it was when I finished by BA some ten years ago. Certainly I am seeing a lot more MA students who already have philosophy degrees.

    Last year UBC admitted four new MA students and four new PhD students. Three of the four new PhD students came in with MAs in philosophy. Four of the four new MA students came in with BAs in philosophy.

  47. William Blattner

    I have been doing graduate admissions at Georgetown for a long time. I agree that the overall trend of an increase of applicants from MA programs is there. In fact, my colleague, Rebecca Kukla, wrote a guest post on this topic around a year ago for this very blog. The applicants for PhD programs out there should know that I, at least, and I suspect most others who serve on PhD admissions committees, make no assumptions about family wealth or why a student chose to pursue an MA first. There are lots of very good reasons to pursue an MA first: perhaps you didn't do an undergraduate philosophy major; or the major program you did finish did not prepare you fully for the mainstream contemporary philosophy scene (perhaps the idea to pursue a PhD came to you late in your major, which you had devoted before then mostly to cherry-picking the interesting-looking classes, rather than ones that would prepare you for grad school); or as one poster above remarked, you weren't sure you wanted to go all the way with a PhD in philosophy, and so you checked out an MA program first; perhaps you had a spotty record as an undergraduate, because you were a late-bloomer or had to work full time while in college or spent way too much time partying; the list goes on.

    Now, the problem that the original correspondent raises, that it is becoming harder to sort through the applications and identify the 10 or 20 best based on the writing sample, is a real problem. The problem is, however, too much of a good thing. What I've inferred from the increased professionalization of the discipline at this level is simply that students are getting more rigorous training and are better prepared for grad school than they were 15 years ago. (When I applied for grad schools back in the early '80's, I just sent in an unedited paper from one of my courses. Done. That would not work today.)

    It is simply impossible to know whether an applicant had help with an essay. This is true no matter where the applicant applies from, whether from a BA program or an MA program. One just has to assume the work is all the students'. Always assume honesty first. After all, this isn't Wall St.: there is very little financial incentive to "cheat" your way into a PhD program in philosophy. As the poster above from GSU (a program that sends us a bunch of applicants each year) notes, if the faculty at MA programs succumbed to the pressure speculated in the original post, it wouldn't take long for that program to fall into disrepute. Their students would flame out quickly. My experience has been that there are a healthy number of excellent MA programs (I won't list them for fear of forgetting one), and in fact every other year a new MA program comes onto the radar.

    One last comment about "discounting" work from MA programs. I take it that the original correspondent was using the term the way it's used financially: calculating in the additional training that an MA student has done. A logician or decision-theorist can tell me whether this is just the same thing, but I think of it the other way around: when I get a very sophisticated paper from a student coming directly out of college, it attracts my notice precisely because the student did not have the extra training. There aren't a huge number of such papers each year, however, which is why more and more students are seeking MA training.

  48. I have little to say about whether or not some applicants receive more help with their writing samples than others, apart from that obviously it's impossible to be sure of equity in this.

    The main significance of the rise in MAs that I can see is just the addition of yet another year or two or even three to the already too long process of getting a Philosophy PhD.(Obviously what I say here only applies to those who majored in Philosophy at undergrad – the MA's clearly useful for those who did not.) The length of the process is a big part of why those who do get the PhD but fail to find a good position thereafter are left in such a horrible, sometimes life-destroying situation – trying to begin a career in a new field in their mid-thirties while broke or in debt. There's absolutely no reason why it should take so long to get a PhD in philosophy. Think of all the amazing philosophers in the early 20th C. who made do without one (or the likes of Derek Parfit today). And think of all the amazing philosophers who took 3/4 years to get their PhD in the mid-twentieth century. Why we think it necessary to stretch the PhD process to (for some) upward of ten years is beyond me. Can't people see that something has gone horribly wrong?

  49. Undergrad from state

    I come from a state school, I have had pretty respectable grades for my upper division philosophy classes (but my grades in my freshman and sophomore years are something which is not deserving of praise), and I do not come from a wealthy family. If I were to want to pursue a PhD, I would need to get a terminal MA. If an MA is the de facto way of getting to a stellar academic program which grants PhDs, then this will make it very hard for people like me who did not start off with an advantageous pedigree. Won't admission to terminal MA programs become more competitive which will result in a preference for applicants with a brand name academic pedigree rather than those from a state school as a result?

  50. It may be relevant to the original question of the quality of writing samples to recognise that the MA degree may be quite a different beast depending on where it is done. In Australian departments, the most common form of the MA is either 100% by thesis (generally about 40,000 words) or by some coursework with a slightly shorter thesis. The thesis is an original research project undertaken over two years and it is marked by external assessors — not by an internal committee. Moreover, it is frequently assigned a numerical mark and not merely treated as Pass/Fail.

    I've seen Aussie MA theses that compare very favorably with North American PhD theses. (Of course, I've some that are pretty unimpressive too.) If OP is getting MA applicants from our corner of the world (and they are people who have done good MA theses), I'm unsurprised that they've got quality writing samples. Many of them are well on their way the level of conceptual sophistication and professionalism that you'd expect out of someone who already has a PhD.

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