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Publishing as an MA student applying to PhD programs

Brian Leiter

An MA student writes:

Two questions (one general, one specific) regarding publishing at the terminal-Masters graduate level.

(1) Is it possible and encouraged to publish as a terminal-Masters graduate student?

(2) If one's first journal publication is in their secondary area of interest (e.g., say one publishes in ethics or aesthetics while their primary AOI is in philosophy of chemistry) would this in any way complicate their chances at admission into a PhD program whose strengths were in one's primary AOI?

My own views are:  (1) there is no need to publish as an MA student, and it is probably not wise to invest energy in that as opposed to learning as much philosophy as possible and polishing written work to use in graduate applications; (2) I don't think it matters at all.  If one publishes a good piece of philosophy (and that's an important *if*), it will count in your favor regardless of your interests.  Thoughts from others?

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20 responses to “Publishing as an MA student applying to PhD programs”

  1. A former MA

    About (2), I have heard similar things to what Brian said.

    About (1)–I agree with Brian here too. you're better off spending time learning philosophy and polishing a writing sample. MA students get into good PhD programs all the time, including the very tippy-top ones, without having published anything.

    Reply
  2. Jonathan Mitchell

    Personally I think this 'rush' to publish, even amongst PHD students, let alone at MA level, is problematic for a number of reasons, and is potentially detrimental to philosophy more broadly. Here are a few of my thoughts on these issues.

    (1) Both Masters courses and PHD courses are, amongst other things, training in your subject. The idea is to allow you to develop to a standard of writing and philosophy that might, if you are good enough, stand you in good stead to write publishable pieces of work in the future. The idea of publishing during Masters or during PHD is to a certain extent putting the cart before the horse. Of course there might be exceptions to this at PHD level, a supervisor might in fact tell you that a piece of work you have written is of a good enough standard to have a go at trying to get it published, but the desire should not be to publish for publishing sake.

    (2) Building on (1) i think, as perhaps Leiter's comments allude to, the quality of the work itself (and by relation the quality of the journal or place you might be able to get it published in) is crucial. To a certain extent you might be able to, with a less than excellent piece of work, 'shop around', finding a journal that might be willing to publish your material. But the central questions that need to be asked are something like (a) "is this piece of work good enough for the best journals for this type of philosophy" and (b) "is it at least of a similar standard to the "best" work on this subject getting published in those top journals". If the answer to either of these is no then my sense is that what needs to focused on is the philosophical training, given at both Ma and then at PHD to become, putting it simply, better at philosophy.

    (3) It seems to me that to often the attitude is the reverse of what it should be in academic philosophy, especially amongst younger people (Ma's Phd's etc.). To my mind the first motivation should be to write and work on good philosophy, to improve your understanding and develop your thinking. If you then feel like you have something substantial and interesting to say and contribute after having developed your thought in a piece of work then you can, if you are so inclined, think about publishing it. It seems too often the motivation is bizarrely the opposite of this, individuals have the desire to publish first, and then almost search around for something to say that they think might fit the bill, often resulting, even in successful, in work that is not particularly original and repetitive of what others, who perhaps had something more like the first attitude, have said.

    Reply
  3. Tim O'Keefe

    I second what Brian says.

    Reply
  4. ABD

    Re 2.3 above: "It seems too often the motivation is bizarrely the opposite of this, individuals have the desire to publish first. . ."

    Re #2 (J. Mitchell) –> It might well be an undesirable phenomenon, but it's hardly "bizarre" — how else am I supposed to get a job these days than showing I can churn out publishable work, which is what I will be expected to do for the rest of my career? (Of course things might be different at the top 10 schools, but most of us are not in such enviable positions.)

    I would love to just focus on learning philosophy and teaching the basics to undergrads, but the "publish or perish" model has wormed its way into grad school because of the job market (plus my reasonable desire not to spend 10 years making grad-student wages). (For what it's worth, things seem even worse in the law-teaching market, where multiple publications are practically required in order to be a serious candidate.)

    Perhaps those of you serving on admissions committees have suggestions as to how I can show that I am a valuable candidate without publishing?

    Reply
  5. Jonathan Mitchell

    In response to ABD i have a few remarks:

    What is perhaps "bizarre" is looking to publish before you know if you have anything worth saying, or even deciding on a 'job' being a philosopher before you knew if you had anything worth saying. I agree that the focus on early publishing 'comes from the top' as it were, which almost makes it impossible to escape this quagmire, and i certainly sympathize with the situation of being a PHD knowing that when you finish you will need to publish in order to stand any chance of getting a job. So, if the question is one of the practical reality of the situation in the academy now in relation to these issues i agree its pretty dire. However, if the question however is what attitude we should be taking towards these issues then i think we have to seriously look at the kind of instrumental and, to my mind sterile, attitude to philosophy that this 'rush to publish, along with other things, cultivates.

    Reply
  6. Jonathan Birch

    As someone who published as a Masters student, I can say I did not gain a great deal from it, and I think it is probably not worth it. However, it made me slightly more relaxed about the urgency of publishing as a PhD student (knowing I already had something 'in the bag'), and this probably helped me write a better thesis.

    Reply
  7. Anon Junior Scholar

    Having published as an MA myself, I think the advisability of this depends (partly) on your institution and your standing in your field.

    I was coming from a generally unrecognizable program and trying to get into much better programs on a different continent. Odds were that nobody reading my application knew me, my department, my university, or any of my references. And my work was pretty good but not Wittgenstein-in-the-making. With so many applications for PhDs, mine would be easy to pass over. Having two (good but not great) papers under RnR helped get my application that second look I needed (I was later told).

    Now, when asked by MAs at my current institution whether publishing is a good idea, I say 'no'. They have other ways to distinguish themselves, and, at any rate, are have a department/institution/letters/etc. that are generally known — I don't mean 'famous', I mean simply people/places you'd have heard of. The time they'd spend writing publishable work would be better spent just becoming better philosophers, which would likely show up in writing samples, letters, etc.

    So I would do it again, in the same circumstances. But I think in many (most?) cases it is a bad call.

    Reply
  8. Fritz Allhoff

    I agree with Brian. Every once in a while, we get a student publish in a major journal; ones I can think of are Phil Studies, Synthese, and Philosophy of Science. These were all great students, who then went on to top 10 Ph.D. programs and tenure-track jobs, often at research schools. So if you're that good, go ahead and do it.

    More often, though, we have students who are pretty good, but are contemplating submissions to third-tier journals. This is the sort of thing I'd say to stay away from; these publications are worse than no publications at all. And Ph.D. admissions programs won't be impressed by it–you also run the risk of looking silly by having thought it was a good idea in the first place.

    I'd also reiterate that you only have so much time and that time really should be spent learning philosophy rather than trying to churn out a publication that, all things considered, will look weak on your CV. I'd also strongly recommend spending that time going to conferences, networking, and making contacts in the field; that's huge, and most terminal MA students–including ours–don't take appropriate advantage of those opportunities. (Funding is often available, too, either from your school or from the conferences–organizers also tend to be generous in terms of finding housing for visiting graduate students, often with their own.)

    Reply
  9. MA student, PhD Applicant

    I'm skeptical about the value of publishing for PhD applications, and indeed, about the importance of the quality of the writing sample. My writing sample was accepted for publication by a highly regarded journal, the leading journal in the relevant area. I've been rejected from all the ten PhD programmes I applied for (all of which, I should say, are highly regarded programmes, the one with the lowest PGR ranking being in the 30's) bar one where I still have a slim chance as someone low on the wait list, if someone from the wait list who's been offered a place declines. My application didn't have any significant weaknesses that I'm aware of, other than a relatively low GRE Quantitative score.

    Reply
  10. Soon to be MA Student

    When I asked the graduate adviser at a GR listed MA program about publishing as an MA student, he responded (paraphrase): 'I advise against it. You don't want to be committed to a position in print that was formulated so early on in your philosophical development.'

    Barring the situation Fritz Allhoff describes in his first paragraph, this advice seems quite reasonable and forward looking.

    Reply
  11. MAStudent

    As someone nearing the end of my first year in an MA program, I can't imagine where I'd find time to work on publishing a paper. MA programs go VERY quickly. I'm just now establishing good, strong relationships with my professors and nailing down a solid research portfolio for my thesis. I suppose it would be alright to publish, all things being equal, but I can't imagine where one would find the time.

    Reply
  12. Algol

    Things are so competitive now in philosophy that the only way anyone without connections has a chance at a job is to publish. If you don't publish during your PhD, you'll be doing it while working at McDonalds. If you can publish during an MA, then do it, but most will not have the skills to do so until later. One thing to consider is working on an MA thesis that can later be refined into a publication. Philosophy journal rankings are tricky. Always try to aim high, but the top of the top journals aren't very realistic to set your sights on. There are many middle tier journals that would look good on your CV, especially as an early career researcher. (Ratio, Dialectica, etc).

    BL COMMENT: What is meant by "connections"?

    Reply
  13. recent MA grad

    I agree that at least MA students shouldn't "publish for the sake of publishing", since not publishing doesn't really hurt. (Maybe it will for PhD candidates on the market.) But I'm curious as to how are early-career students supposed to know if something is "potentially publishable"? Do professors *always* point this out to students whenever they see papers that are potentially publishable?
    Personally, I don't mind spending an extra few weeks/months of hard work to turn one of my papers into a good publication, but I also acknowledge that most (if not all) of my term papers are not at that level yet (even after a few months' polishing), and I wouldn't want to waste all that time on a paper that's not worth it. The problem is I have a hard time telling which from which, and even when I feel good about a paper I can't tell if it means that it's "good enough to be potentially publishable" or simply "good enough for a student to get an A+".
    Any insights/advice?

    Reply
  14. Stuart Brock

    With respect to (1), while I used to hold a view very similar to Brian's, my view has now changed. There are two reasons for the change:

    (A) There is more and more pressure on students to publish early. Although the evidence isn't conclusive, and must be taken with a grain of salt, it seems to me that all the evidence favours the view that students will need to publish a number of articles before they get a job, and it takes a LONG TIME between initial writing and appearance in print, so students will need to start early. The Philosophers' Cocoon recently published a blog suggesting that the average (mean) number of publications for successful job candidates before getting their first appointment is 5.5 (http://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2015/03/interview-and-hiring-analysis.html?utm_content=bufferaf115&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer). There are problems with the survey methodology noted in the post, but it is at least *some* evidence over and above the personal anecdotal observations and intuitions of individuals. It is interesting to note that this data suggests that the number of publications is more important that the venue in which they are published. Finally, I was speaking a number of years back to a colleague overseeing graduate admissions at one of the top five US ranked universities in the Gourmet Report. This individual told me that there this institution gets hundreds of applications for entry into their PhD program each year and many of those students have at least one publication. Those students, I'm told, stand out.

    (B) More importantly, from my perspective, encouraging students to publish earlier has meant the quality of their work has risen. This is in part due to (i) the fact that they have an additional motivation to write good work over and above getting a good grade, (ii) they see that they have to write a significantly better paper than they would if they merely wanted to get an A for the paper/thesis, and (iii) the format of their papers is much more closely aligned to what is expected of the student if and when they get an appointment in the field. Students I have encouraged to publish in recent years have put a lot more work into their research and revised their papers many more times than they would have if they were just submitting for a grade or as part of their thesis.

    So while I can see that this approach does have problems, overall I would encourage students who want to publish to give it a go, even in terminal Masters programmes. Ideally, though, it should have some connection to what they are writing either for their thesis or for a paper in a course. Something that needs to be reigned in, in my view, is the student who spends more time on side projects than on the work required for successful completion of their program.

    Reply
  15. Algol

    Stuart is right. As a recent PHD graduate on the job market, it's pretty clear that quite a few publications are required to stand a chance. I have 5 but this is not enough to get on many short lists. Hoping when my two R&Rs go through I'll start having more success. I know some people from top programs get jobs with less articles. But the rest of us have to actually demonstrate that we're good enough for that 1 position 200 peopled applied for.

    BL COMMENT: I really fear this is in the realm of anecdote, not fact. While a publication is often a big plus for a job seeker, there are candidates from non-top 10 programs who get tenure-track jobs every year, including at research universities. That is independent of the question whether MA students need to publish to get into top PhD programs. It is quite clear they do not, as some involved in leading MA programs, above, have testified.

    Reply
  16. Algol

    Of course it's anecdotal. I'm giving my experience and saying that it is consistent with Stuart's comment. I didn't say you had to be in a top 10 to get a job. I did imply that those who don't have this pedigree need to make up for it with articles, which I certainly think is plausible. But anyway, given that publishing is very important for today's job market, I think it's advisable to start thinking about it early. It's definitely not crazy to be thinking of writing an MA thesis that could be refined into a publication. Most PHD and MA students don't realize how tough this job market is. There is not a single job I have applied to with less than 200 applicants, and that includes mainly short term positions.

    BL COMMENT: You did say that it is "pretty clear that quite a few publications are required to stand a chance. I have 5 but this is not enough to get on many short lists." This sounds like a strong inference from the evidence of your own experience. Where does your PhD program rank overall and/or in your specialties? Those are pertinent factors in knowing how to generalize from your experience. It's important to emphasize these points, because job seekers really do have different kinds of experience, which are affected by many variables, only one of which is publications.

    Reply
  17. Algol

    Asking for further information is fair enough. The PHD is from a program towards the bottom of the Leiter rankings in the UK but with high ranks for metaphysics (my main area of expertise). I've applied to 30 or more jobs in the UK and the US (mainly the UK, as my wife works there) over the last year. I have only gotten 1 interview for a 1 year position but didn't get the job. I had 4 publications at that time (two top 20).

    Reply
  18. anon

    With regards to both the original question and the related issue of publishing during your PhD the issue is that we have a classic collective action problem with a race to the bottom structure. Everyone would be better off if people did not publish for the sake of publishing, but for every individual it's advantageous to have published more than the next person. So I think it is clear that the individually rational strategy is to publish as much and as early as possible (of course quality matters; but quantity does too).

    At the same time the discipline should try to find a solution for this collective action problem. I think that Mitchell is bang on with this part of his comment:
    "(3) It seems to me that to often the attitude is the reverse of what it should be in academic philosophy, especially amongst younger people (Ma's Phd's etc.). To my mind the first motivation should be to write and work on good philosophy, to improve your understanding and develop your thinking. If you then feel like you have something substantial and interesting to say and contribute after having developed your thought in a piece of work then you can, if you are so inclined, think about publishing it. It seems too often the motivation is bizarrely the opposite of this, individuals have the desire to publish first, and then almost search around for something to say that they think might fit the bill, often resulting, even in successful, in work that is not particularly original and repetitive of what others, who perhaps had something more like the first attitude, have said."

    Although I think that the problem applies equally to people who are trying to make tenure.

    Again, it's not mysterious why people behave that way. If you want to teach philosophy, you'd better publish. But this doesn't make the attitude any less bizarre. And it leads to awfully boring (if well executed papers) in many journals. If you look at the profiles of the new junior appointments over at philjobs, you'll see that most of them have a handful of publications. If you spent a few hours and check some of them out, you'll wonder why anyone would want to read most of these papers (incidentally we know that most papers don't get read a lot).

    The root of the problem is, of course, that number (and to some degree quality) of publications has become the measuring rod of academic excellence in the field – at least partly because it is a measure that administrators understand. The pernicious effect of it all is that all the jobs will go to people who find ways to publish asap, i.e. often before they have become philosophers worth listening to.

    How could the discipline counteract this? I don't know but I think the following might be worth debating.
    1. The most prestigious journals could simply stop accepting submissions from students
    – This would ease the pressure to publish on students because nobody would have very good publications anymore coming out of grad-school (incidentally it would ease the load on referees and could have beneficial effects on review times)
    2. Schools could require that publications are left off the CV for applications to junior appointments
    3. We need to think harder about other proxies for excellence that can be used instead or alongside publications. My understanding is that in South America job candidates are required to write an essay on the spot during an assessment centre process. I'm not sure this particular idea is great. But we need to come up with some ways for candidates to show that they are excellent philosophers even if they have not published their work (which may be just too ambitious to cram into a publishable paper early on).

    Reply
  19. Geoff Pynn

    I agree with Brian & Fritz Alhoff. If you're someone who already has the skills to publish pieces in top-tier philosophy journals, then as long as the paper is in a well-respected journal, it is likely to help and unlikely to hurt. But for most people early on that takes a whole lot of time and energy that would almost certainly be better spent excelling in your coursework and working on a writing sample for your PhD applications. A handful of our MA students at NIU have published in good places, and they have also (all those I can think of at least) done very well with PhD admissions, but the vast majority of those who have done well with PhD admissions have not published anything.

    Reply
  20. grad student

    I published an article in my first year in a good (but not top) journal, and I'm a PhD student at an unranked Canadian school.

    Here's my view: you're in grad school because you love philosophy and want to contribute to the field. If you can publish a paper in a respected journal early, do it. You don't know whether, post-PhD, you will have the opportunity to be paid to do philosophy ever again. I have a massive scholarship that lets me write what I love, and nothing has felt better than feedback on the quality of my article and knowing that it was taught in a few graduate seminars this year. Whether or not I ever land a TT job in philosophy (and let's be honest, I probably won't) I'll know that something I published got at least a few philosophers and students thinking. That's what this life is (supposed to be) all about.

    Reply

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