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Chomsky (?) on postmodernism (and Derrida in particular)

This is plausibly Chomsky, although the source is a bit peculiar; comments are open for correction or confirmation.  It certainly sounds like him, and the remarks about Derrida are exactly right.   An excerpt:

There are lots of things I don't understand — say, the latest debates over whether neutrinos have mass or the way that Fermat's last theorem was (apparently) proven recently. But from 50 years in this game, I have learned two things: (1) I can ask friends who work in these areas to explain it to me at a level that I can understand, and they can do so, without particular difficulty; (2) if I'm interested, I can proceed to learn more so that I will come to understand it. Now Derrida, Lacan, Lyotard, Kristeva, etc. — even Foucault, whom I knew and liked, and who was somewhat different from the rest — write things that I also don't understand, but (1) and (2) don't hold: no one who says they do understand can explain it to me and I haven't a clue as to how to proceed to overcome my failures. That leaves one of two possibilities: (a) some new advance in intellectual life has been made, perhaps some sudden genetic mutation, which has created a form of "theory" that is beyond quantum theory, topology, etc., in depth and profundity; or (b) … I won't spell it out….

Take, say, Derrida. Let me begin by saying that I dislike making the kind of comments that follow without providing evidence, but I doubt that participants want a close analysis of de Saussure, say, in this forum, and I know that I'm not going to undertake it. I wouldn't say this if I hadn't been explicitly asked for my opinion — and if asked to back it up, I'm going to respond that I don't think it merits the time to do so.

So take Derrida, one of the grand old men. I thought I ought to at least be able to understand his Grammatology, so tried to read it. I could make out some of it, for example, the critical analysis of classical texts that I knew very well and had written about years before. I found the scholarship appalling, based on pathetic misreading; and the argument, such as it was, failed to come close to the kinds of standards I've been familiar with since virtually childhood. Well, maybe I missed something: could be, but suspicions remain, as noted. Again, sorry to make unsupported comments, but I was asked, and therefore am answering.

Some of the people in these cults (which is what they look like to me) I've met: Foucault (we even have a several-hour discussion, which is in print, and spent quite a few hours in very pleasant conversation, on real issues, and using language that was perfectly comprehensible — he speaking French, me English); Lacan (who I met several times and considered an amusing and perfectly self-conscious charlatan, though his earlier work, pre-cult, was sensible and I've discussed it in print); Kristeva (who I met only briefly during the period when she was a fervent Maoist); and others. Many of them I haven't met, because I am very remote from from these circles, by choice, preferring quite different and far broader ones — the kinds where I give talks, have interviews, take part in activities, write dozens of long letters every week, etc. I've dipped into what they write out of curiosity, but not very far, for reasons already mentioned: what I find is extremely pretentious, but on examination, a lot of it is simply illiterate, based on extraordinary misreading of texts that I know well (sometimes, that I have written), argument that is appalling in its casual lack of elementary self-criticism, lots of statements that are trivial (though dressed up in complicated verbiage) or false; and a good deal of plain gibberish. When I proceed as I do in other areas where I do not understand, I run into the problems mentioned in connection with (1) and (2) above.

(Thanks to Ruchira Paul for the pointer.)

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23 responses to “Chomsky (?) on postmodernism (and Derrida in particular)”

  1. Chomsky does not know in any serious way the phenomenological tradition, nor does he have any acquaintance with modernist traditions in which certain kinds of difficult writing are thought to do philosophical work (Derrida, Adorno, etc). Not everyone can know everything, that is fine. But this is just standard 'I am omnicompetent' arrogance.

  2. Just to be clear, I don't really want an extended discussion of the merits of Chomsky's view, although I myself think it has a lot of merit, and I know the relevant traditions (although I also think one needs to distinguish different parts of Foucault, not all of it belongs in the same camp with Derrida). But in the case of Derrida, Chomsky most certainly knows Saussure, and so is in a position to judge that Derrida is an incompetent interpreter–much like J. Claude Evans showed that Derrida was a bad reader of Husserl.

    And far from being "I am omnicompetent" arrogance, Chomsky made clear that there are things he can't understand without help, and what is puzzling is that the help is hard to come by when it comes to Derrida, Lacan, Kristeva et al.

  3. I'm almost certain this is Chomsky. I’ve been listening quite a bit to the "Chomsky's Philosophy" YouTube Channel, which aggregates video/audio segments of him throughout his career. Just last night I was listening to the video titled “Noam Chomsky – Postmodernism and Post-structuralism” (

    and there are some snippets that overlap significantly with your post. Beginning at 5:47 (by the way, the book he references by Bricmont/Sokal is called Fashionable Nonsense, a fantastic read that is simultaneously hilarious and depressing):

    I think there's some interesting work on this…there's a book by two physicists, Jean Bricmont and Alan Sokal, both of them happen to be political radicals, just running through—it's mostly Paris—postmodernism ,what postmodern commentators have said about science, and it is really embarrassing. I mean to the extent you can understand it. I mean, I think then there is a point…insofar as they say that everything that people do is some kind of social construction, depends on the historical context, cultural context, you know that part's true. I don't know if you need the whole postmodern baggage to say those things…at least personally I haven't seen anything…it doesn't seem to me it has to be said in anything but monosyllables…as far as I understand that it's pretty straightforward…I get the feeling that it's kind of. I mean there is a drive among intellectuals to make things look difficult, that's a kind of self-protection. I mean if what I'm doing can be done by, you know, the guy who is repairing my furnace, okay then, 'Who am I?' and then there's those physicists over there who talk…complicated things and I don't understand them…and so I'd like to be like them. That drive is clearly there and I think it should be resisted. I mean we should say things simply so that people can understand them…

    The video then picks up at the 7:22 mark with another snippet:

    "I'm sure like anything that we understand…at all with regard to things as complicated as human affairs the answers are pretty trivial. If they're not trivial we don't understand it…There is category and intellectuals who are undoubtedly perfectly sincere, who, if you look at it from the outside, what they're actually doing is using polysyllabic words and complicated constructions, which apparently they seem to understand because they talk to each other–most of the time I can't understand what the heck they're talking about…and these people, especially in my field, and it's all very inflated and a lot of prestige and so on…has a terrible effect in the third world. In the first world, rich countries, it didn't really matter that much. So if a lot of nonsense goes on in the Paris cafes or the Yale comparative literature department, well okay. On the other hand, in the third world, popular movements really need serious intellectuals to participate, and if they're all ranting postmodern absurdities, well they're gone and I've seen real examples…and it's considered very left-wing and very advanced…some of what appears in it actually makes sense, but when you reproduce it in monosyllables it out to be truisms. So yes, it is perfectly true that if you look at scientists in the West, they're mostly men. It's perfectly true that women have had a hard time breaking into the scientific fields. And it's perfectly true that there are institutional factors determining how science proceeds that reflect power structures. I mean all of this can be described literally in monosyllables and it turns out that the truisms…you don't get to be a respected intellectual by presenting truisms and monosyllables. Now a lot of the left criticism…so-called left, personally I don’t consider them to be left…

    Comments were largely stripped out with the youtube transcript website (https://youtubetranscript.com/) and then edited for accuracy and readability. A fantastic tool for anyone looking to turn podcasts or audio/video interviews into text.

    Let me also just say I couldn't agree with Chomsky more. By page 6 of "Of Grammatology" (I just opened the PDF to look again) I actually wrote in the margin "Seems like complete word salad from the jump". Retorts like Steven Levine's are extremely common from those that have worked within that "tradition", but they do absolutely nothing in terms of providing further illumination.

  4. With a little poking around, I found the following article, which Chomsky appears to have contributed to a Z Magazine forum about postmodernist critiques of science and rationality in the same year as the above passage was supposedly submitted to a Z Magazine "On-Line Bulletin Board": Noam Chomsky, Ratonality/Science, Z Papers Special Issue (1995), available at https://chomsky.info/1995____02/. The article seems to present evidence for and against the proposition that the above passage really came from Chomsky. On the one hand, after a quick scan of the article, the position he takes in the article seem to be on par with the one he is taking in the quoted passage (I didn't have time to read either that closely, though). Additionally, the article is clearly part of some kind of forum Z Magazine was hosting on this topic, so the quoted contribution to the Bulletin Board could feasibly have been just another contribution to that discussion.

    On the other hand, the writing style of the article feels pretty different from the writing style of the quoted passage above. The article is much more classicaly Chomsky in that it's style is pretty formal and academic. The quoted passage feels much more conversational in a way that doesn't quite feel like Chomsky. I say this based simply on my experience of having read lots of Chomsky's writings and watched lots of his interviews. For example, does the following quote really sound like something Chomsky would say: "But from 50 years in this game, I have learned two things…"? It's obviously possible that Chomsky just writes differently when he's writing on a Bulletin Board, which basically sounds like a comments section, than he does when he is writing a regular article. But I'm skeptical that Chomsky wrote this.

    Of course, it does seem that at least the part of this passage that is quoted here accurately represents Chomsky's views on postmodernism. And I know I've heard Chomsky say, in another interview, that an expert's ability or inability to explain his theory to a non-expert is a good marker of whether the theory has any substance. So I guess my theory is that the Chomsky impersonater is someone who has spent enough time familiarizing himself with Chomsky's writings and interviews to use Chomsky's favorite stock ideas in precisely the way that the real Chomsky would use them. And that sounds crazy. But I've got to go with my gut. After all, this is the internet, home of the crazies.

  5. Did he read Sam Wheeler? Or Rorty for that matter? Of course, he would likely dismiss them as speaking nonsense, or incompetent. I personally don't find Grammatology that hard, and Derrida's overall position seems quite intelligible. I don't buy it, but that it another matter. So I guess I am just a lot smarter than Chomsky. I am now a word historical figure! Or maybe hermeneutical understanding involves lot amore than just being 'smart'.

  6. That is definitely not Chomsky's prose styling or sensibility. Not that I know the man, but from twenty year's of hard reading of his books ( with varying degrees of understanding I admit), no, it's not Chomsky.

  7. I never found Derrida to be that impenetrable and taught him for several years in the late 80s and 90s. You have to accept a lot to engage his project, e.g. that there is something called "The West" that manifests itself in a "metaphysics" that revolves around "presence" etc. A lot of this is from later Heidegger so if you know his work you can get the hang of it. But agreeing with it, or even accepting the validity of the entire framework, is an entirely different matter. I never did either, and stopped teaching him in part because I found his influence toxic. In any event, I have never been drawn to claims like "P is unintelligible" or "P makes no arguments" etc–since this was how all of Continental philosophy, and especially Hegel, was dismissed for most of my education. And it could be applied to anyone. I had the misfortune of teaching in an "ordinary language philosophy" department for some years, for whom everything–except themselves–was "unintelligible". For them, of course, the problem was not that others didn't have arguments, but that they did have arguments. (Derrida's essay on Levinas remains in my view his most interesting piece, and was invaluable in prompting people to read Levinas.)

  8. In a reply to the journalist Jesse Singal, Chomsky confirmed his authorship of the post: https://twitter.com/jessesingal/status/1356058404322766850

  9. A few more exmaples of passages from the Bulletin Board post that don't quite sound like Chomsky; in fact, the boastful tone sounds like a parody of Chomsky:

    "I've returned from travel-speaking, where I spend most of my life…" [this is the post's opening line – certainly sounds like the opening of a parody]

    "apparently it is not 'elitist' to stay within the self- and mutual-admiration societies of intellectuals who talk only to one another and (to my knowledge) don't enter into the kind of world in which I'd prefer to live. As for that world, I can reel off my speaking and writing schedule to illustrate what I mean…" [reel off!]

    "I've lived for 50 years in these worlds, have done a fair amount of work of my own in fields called 'philosophy' and 'science,' as well as intellectual history, and have a fair amount of personal acquaintance with the intellectual culture in the sciences, humanities, social sciences, and the arts." [what is this field called 'science'? has Chomsky elsewhere boasted about making contributions to intellectual history?]

    "I am very remote from from these circles, by choice, preferring quite different and far broader ones — the kinds where I give talks, have interviews, take part in activities, write dozens of long letters every week, etc." [dozens of letters! long letters!]

    "Johnb says that outside of circles like this forum, 'to the rest of the country, he's incomprehensible' ('he' being me). That's absolutely counter to my rather ample experience, with all sorts of audiences." [ample experience!]

  10. The ideas seem like things Chomsky has said in varios Youtube videos I've listened to, but the tone isn't Chomsky.

    For example, Chomsky has an excellent dry sense of humor and that's not apparent in the text.

    Here's Chomsky (I googled "Chomsky French thought".



  11. Even without JS's confirmation, this is Chomsky. He has said the same thing often, when pressed for a view. For example:

    it's not necessarily a criticism to say that something doesn't make sense: there are subjects that it's hard to talk sensibly about. But if I read, say, Russell, or analytic philosophy, or Wittgenstein and so on, I think I can come to understand what they're saying, and I can see why I think it's wrong, as I often do. But when I read, you know, Derrida, or Lacan, or AIthusser, or any of these-I just don't understand it. It's like words passing in front of my eyes: I can't follow the arguments, I don't see the arguments, anything that looks like a description of a fact looks wrong to me. So maybe I'm missing a gene or something, it's possible. But my honest opinion is, I think it's all fraud. (Understanding Power, 2003, p. 231)

    This clip offers a slightly different perspective:


  12. According to Reddit, and of course this should axiomatically be taken cum grano salis, Chomsky responded (about five years ago) to a university student who asked him about these very (famous/notorious) comments of his on postmodernism. Chomsky's ostensible response: "It was back in the ‘70s, I think in some publications of a psychoanalytical society where I gave some talks that were transcribed and published. But I’ve lost track, and that was all pre-electronic, of course. There might be something in archives. I was discussing his work on dream language, if I recall correctly."

    https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/5l6hao/where_can_i_find_chomsky_talking_about_lacan/

  13. If you read that reddit post carefully, you'll note that the university student was seeking to elicit from Chomsky, not confirmation of his authorship of the discussion board post, but more detail regarding the "discuss[ion] in print" of Lacan's early work to which Chomsky alludes in the discussion board post. The "it" of Chomsky's response refers to Chomsky's printed comments on Lacan's early work.

  14. At least as far as meaning and language (Chomsky's primary areas of expertise) are concerned, Derrida's core argument is pretty simple: 'No meaning can be determined out of context, but no context permits saturation. What I am referring to here is not richness of substance, semantic fertility, but rather structure, the structure of the remnant or of iteration' (Bloom et al, p.81). Now you may find that trivial or uninteresting, but I've not found it hard over the years to explain it to undergraduate students.

  15. "No meaning can be determined out of context" I understand (but it is false, conflating semantics with pragmatics, but perhaps in context [!] the reference was to pragmatics). Everything else I find unintelligible, but would welcome an English translation!

  16. Chomsky is, I think, still alive. (He participated in an online seminar with Saul Kripke and others last year or the year before, I think.) Why doesn't someone (I nominate Brian Leiter, so Chomsky doesn't get deluged with multiple e-mails asking the same question) whether he remembers writing this?

    As to content. I think it's interesting that the author distinguishes Foucault from the others, as maybe not entirely in the same game. And dismisses Lacan as a "self-conscious" charlatan: as if the others are maybe a bit less dishonest in having deceived themselves as well as their readers.

  17. An oft cited comment by John Searle re: both Derrida & Foucault:

    "With Derrida, you can hardly misread him, because he’s so obscure. Every time you say, “He says so and so,” he always says, “You misunderstood me.” But if you try to figure out the correct interpretation, then that’s not so easy. I once said this to Michel Foucault, who was more hostile to Derrida even than I am, and Foucault said that Derrida practiced the method of obscurantisme terroriste (terrorism of obscurantism). We were speaking French. And I said, “What the hell do you mean by that?” And he said, “He writes so obscurely you can’t tell what he’s saying, that’s the obscurantism part, and then when you criticize him, he can always say, ‘You didn’t understand me; you’re an idiot.’ That’s the terrorism part."

    But even Foucault, notwithstanding his accusation of "obscurantisme terroriste" against Derrida, was, at least in that instance, being quite diplomatic, in contradistinction to Chomsky, who basically flat out calls Derrida a charlatan (along with Lacan qua guru). I have in mind principally Of Grammatology, in which one of the principle theses is encapsulated in the concept of logocentrism (grosso modo): the metaphysics of privileging speech over writing.

    Perhaps this latter point held in the case of Greco-Roman high culture, but by the Middle Ages it had surely been inverted with the privileging of the written (and more to the point the ancient–philosophical, scientific, legalistic– words of the Greco-Roman world itself) over the spoken word.

    So at least from that historical point forward Derrida's thesis reads like a consciously perverse inversion of the empirically obvious: a signed document was at least as, if not more important than the spoken word. The illiterate Caribs encountered by Columbus inculpated themselves, in his eyes, to inferiority by their inability to make even the most rudimentary of written claims in defense of their lives, and by extension their civilization as such.

    Ditto for the to-be-enslaved Africans who, to be sure, privileged the spoken word, over the written, even more than Derrida's even middling Europeans. But again the latter "logocentric" primacy that held sway in subsaharan African societies (thereby in theory bringing them far closer to some Platonic golden age of logocentricity) was, in reality, axiomatically seen by early modern Europeans as proof of their barbaric eccentricity from, not greater (logocentric) affinity to civilization.

    Yet it's perhaps in its mysteriously glaring inversion of the obvious where the heart and truth of Of Grammatology lies. To wit, that it's an elaborate book-length charade: a very late mutated modernist work a la Joyce-cum-Borges, metalinguistically crossed with Magritte and Picasso.

    In other words, the original motivating impulse is towards a simulation that consists precisely in miming & mimicking a genuine work of philosophical inquiry while simultaneously sustaining from start to finish the inscrutable wordplay of a very late modernist beast, specifically in its performative pursuit of the conflation, encapsulation, and translation of the logocentric, with the graphocentric, even with the pictorial.

    In short, a dog's breakfast or, as Joyce might have said, doggeriddean homage to Joyce lui meme, but almost just as importantly to Sterne, Borges, Breton, while also necessarily to Magritte and Picasso, for the added vital elan of multidimensionality.

    At best a minor classic or curio (with more than a dash of Swiftean impishness) consisting of the hyper or meta-simulative translation of far greater classics of the satirico-sophistical canon.

  18. This is definitely Chomsky. It comes from a late 90s/early 00s forum that was made available to sustainers of the online version of Michael Albert's ZMag periodical and that allowed subscribers to pose questions to Chomsky (and other Zmag contributors):
    https://zcomm.org/znetarticle/postmodernism-by-noam-chomsky/

  19. Directed to Ludovic, I guess.

    FWIW, which is probably very little: I hate it when one philosopher testifies on behalf of another philosopher that it was all a performance piece a la Breton or Duchamp or Joyce or whomever.

    Philosophers (of any persuasion) should just get on with their work and leave the performance art to the performance artists.

  20. On whether Chomsky said this, I would suspect so, since the is a very similar passage in *the Essential Chomsky* pp 230-231.

  21. Why not quit arguing about Derrida as philosophy and just let the literature departments have him?

  22. Doesn't Derrida seem like an exemplary practitioner of the "Motte and Bailey" move?

    https://philpapers.org/archive/SHATVO-2.pdf

  23. Directed to Zimmerman:

    "Of Grammatology was the title of an article and a book which had appeared some five years previously, and which – this is one of the many misunderstandings or mis-recognition (méconnaissances) of Lacan and others on this subject – never proposed a grammatology, a positive science or discipline bearing that name, but went to great efforts to demonstrate instead the impossibility, the conditions of impossibility, the absurdity on principle, of any science or any philosophy bearing the name grammatology. This book which dealt with grammatology, was anything but a grammatology. )

    -Derrida "For the love of Lacan!"

    Doesn't this give the game away as regards the parodic nature of the aforecited? Not that it's all or just parody, but that whatever substantive content there is (based on Husserl, Heidegger, etc)–in that philosophical collage or collision of style and substance–is one that has been intensely translated into, let us call it, 'parodicalese'–in an intentionally and indeed determinatively parodic language.

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